Calculators are deterministic, but they are not necessarily correct. Consider 32-bit integer arithmetic:
30000000 * 1000 / 1000
30000000 / 1000 * 1000
Mathematically, they are identical. Computationally, the results are deterministic. On the other hand, the computer will produce different results. There are many other cases where the expected result is different from what a computer calculates.
A good calculator will however do this correctly (as in: the way anyone would expect). Small cheap calculators revert to confusing syntax, but if you pay $30 for a decent handheld calculator or use something decent like wolframalpha on your phone/laptop/desktop you won't run into precision issues for reasonable numbers.
He’s not talking about order of operations, he’s talking about floating point error, which will accumulate in different ways in each case, because floating point is an imperfect representation of real numbers
Yeap, the specific example wasn't important. I choose an example involving the order of operations and an integer overflow simply because it would be easy to discuss. (I have been out of the field for nearly 20 years now.) Your example of floating point errors is another. I also encountered artifacts from approximations for transcendental functions.
Choosing a "better" language was not always an option, at least at the time. I was working with grad students who were managing huge datasets, sometimes for large simulations and sometimes from large surveys. They were using C. Some of the faculty may have used Fortran. C exposes you the vulgarities of the hardware, and I'm fairly certain Fortran does as well. They weren't going to use a calculator for those tasks, nor an interpreted language. Even if they wanted to choose another language, the choice of languages was limited by the machines they used. I've long since forgotten what the high performance cluster was running, but it wasn't Linux and it wasn't on Intel. They may have been able to license something like Mathematica for it, but that wasn't the type of computation they were doing.
I didn't consider it an order of operations issue. Order of operations doesn't matter in the above example unless you have bad precision. What I was trying to say is that good calculators have plenty of precision.
But floating point error manifest in different ways. Most people only care about 2 to 4 decimals which even the cheapest calculators can do well for a good amount of consecutive of usual computations. Anyone who cares about better precision will choose a better calculator. So floating point error is remediable.
> The determining factor is always "did I come up with this tool". Somehow, subsequent generations always manage to find their own competencies (which, to be fair, may be different).
In a sense, I think you are right. We are currently going through a period of transition that values some skills and devalues others. The people who see huge productivity gains because they don't have to do the meaningless grunt work are enthusiastic about that. The people who did not come up with the tool are quick to point out pitfalls.
The thing is, the naysayers aren't wrong since the path we choose to follow will determine the outcome of using the technology. Using it to sift through papers to figure out what is worth reading in depth is useful. Using it to help us understand difficult points in a paper is useful. On the other hand, using it as a replacement for reading the papers is counterproductive. It is replacing what the author said with what a machine "thinks" an author said. That may get rid of unnecessary verbosity, but it is almost certainly stripping away necessary details as well.
My university days were spent studying astrophysics. It was long ago, but the struggles with technology handling data were similar. There were debates between older faculty who were fine with computers, as long as researchers were there to supervise the analysis every step of the way, and new faculty, who needed computers to take raw data to reduced results without human intervention. The reason was, as always, productivity. People could not handle the massive amounts of data being generated by the new generation of sensors or systematic large scale surveys if they had to intervene any step of the way. At a basic level, you couldn't figure out whether it was a garbage-in, garbage-out type scenario because no one had the time to look at the inputs. (I mean no time in an absolute sense. There was too much data.) At a deeper level, you couldn't even tell if the data processing steps were valid unless there was something obviously wrong with the data. Sure, the code looked fine. If the code did what we expected of it, mathematically, it would be fine. But there were occasions where I had to point out that the computer isn't working how they thought it was.
It was a debate in which both sides were right. You couldn't make scientific progress at a useful pace without sticking computers in the middle and without computers taking over the grunt work. On the other hand, the machine cannot be used as a replacement for the grunt work of understanding, may that involves reading papers or analyzing the code from the perspective of a computer scientist (rather than a mathematician).
Take a look at the technology sitting in front of you. How many ideas does it incorporate that were tried and failed, or were tried but languished in niche markets for decades before they became an everyday thing?
A lot of ideas fail because they're not ready: they are expensive, they are not reliable (yet), the world is not ready for them. None of those reasons mean an idea is bad. They simply mean it will take more time and effort for them to work.
I agree. I do not think we are anywhere near the original conversation anymore, however. I certainly never said anything that contradicts your comment.
He had a comment that said, essentially, “all good ideas eventually win out.” He then heavily edited his comment after I responded. That could be the source of confusion for you here.
> what exactly am I supposed to do with the above?
Exactly what you did there: ask a question.
You tried it, you know where the potential failure points are. Don't assume the super optimistic person hasn't considered them. Ask them how they would address those issues. If they have addressed them, maybe there is something workable. If they haven't addressed those failure points, you have given them a choice: to tackle those issues in the background or to set the idea aside.
> We (as a society/culture) are absolutely giving our children passes and teaching them to act this way.
That depends upon where you teach. I've worked in schools where families who would put up with that type of behaviour were an anomaly. The school sends the same message.
Of course, one can argue that society is sending conflicting messages. Yet then my question would be: are those messages coming from people who are truly reflective of society? Those messages are certainly coming from the loudest voices, voices that are (more often than not) controlled by a few organizations that seem to have a moral compass that points towards the profit of the organization rather than social welfare. Even then I have to wonder whether the views of the organization reflect the views of the people it is composed of.
Yes, it does. I was speaking generally. I think if you selected teachers at random from the entire set of K-12 teachers in America, you'd find more who do have to deal with that behavior than don't.
That's the impression I have as well, but I am also cautious about accepting it. People tend to discuss the bad schools and ignore the good ones. They tend to focus upon the families who don't care for their kids (may they be poor or rich), and ignore the families who do care for their kids. It's easy to understand why. The kids who do act out need a disproportionate amount of attention to keep the system on track.
I wonder if it isn't so much the absolute number of kids who act out (at least initially) so much as it is the change in the way we've handled consequences? My understanding is in a lot of school systems, it's nearly impossible to hold a child back or to fail them, and that it's much harder to mete out discipline. Even if the number is holding steady, the rest of the class/families are still seeing that there are no consequences for not meeting standards and exhibiting problematic behavior, which is sort of the start of a slow moving poison.
There's the info boxes that it could be added to, that way it is always available at a mouse click.
That said, I'm not sure how useful expanding most of the acronyms would be. Names like Negative/Positive Metal Oxide Semiconductor aren't exactly self-explanatory, Vdd isn't really an acronym, etc..
I went down that rabbit hole. Apparently, he was a member of the Saskatchewan Social Credit Party. It looks like the party never made inroads in Saskatchewan, but the party controlled Alberta for decades. Then I ran into the following comment in the article:
> If mental illness is on the rise, then the obvious solution is on-demand therapists through an app
That is not the only "solution". Alberta had a Eugenics Board for the entire run of the Social Credit Party. One of the roles of this board was to sterilize people with mental illness. (The board predates the party by about a decade, but was only abolished about a year after they lost power.) While this a couple of leaps from the Technocracy movement, the mere association is rather scary.
Controlled Alberta for decades and BC as well though in BC it transformed into more of a big tent "everyone but the NDP" conservative party. Still run by lunatics though.
In Saskatchewan prairie populism took a left wing form instead.
In Alberta the taint of these people never went away. Lougheed's progressive conservatives pulled Alberta governance a bit more mainstream for a couple decades, but Smith's UCP has dragged it right back. Magazines like Alberta Report and hangers-on kept far right prairie right wing populism alive for decades, Preston Manning (Social Credit premier Earnest Manning's son) "mainstream"ized it in the Reform Party ... which essentially took over the federal conservative party... there's a well-spring of this stuff in rural Alberta.. and its full of all sorts of paranoid persecution complex politics, undertones of anti-Semitism (sometimes outright explicit as in the whole James Keegstra afair), with everything to the left of them considered "communism" and these days with bags of money being dumped on them from the US they have no managed to get themselves enough signatures to force a referendum on "independence" (aka annexation by the US).
As a person from Alberta originally and with all my family still there, I find it all a bit terrifying. Very much not a relic of the past, and with COVID and now Trump the lunatic fringe has outsized influence there like it never did before.
I suspect if you probe the right people from the UCP in the right church basements where they're off-mic you'd still find them defending things like eugenics etc.
If I had to make a guess, it is for the same reason that people will pay more for free shipping: they simply aren't doing the math. Of course, there could also be other reasons, things like people valuing their free time differently. Just because your employer is willing to pay $N/hour doesn't mean you are losing $N by waiting in line for an hour.
> Just because your employer is willing to pay $N/hour doesn't mean you are losing $N by waiting in line for an hour.
Most people do nothing with their time. You're not being paid to watch TV or play video games. Learning is perhaps the only thing that pays, and it's not cash nor immediate.
>> Sadly you are atypical and the vast majority are freeloaders
> Citation needed.
I think we need to agree upon a definition of freeloader before citing sources to support the claim. I've found that many people who use the word have a much more transactional view of the world than I do.
Calculators are deterministic, but they are not necessarily correct. Consider 32-bit integer arithmetic:
Mathematically, they are identical. Computationally, the results are deterministic. On the other hand, the computer will produce different results. There are many other cases where the expected result is different from what a computer calculates.reply