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I guess the "eight megabytes and constantly swapping" meme is now lost given Electron.

VSCode isn't a regular Electron crap application, in fact Microsoft has dozens of out-of-process plugins written in C++, Rust and C# to work around Electron crap issues, also the in-editor terminal makes use of WebGL instead of div and p soup.

Boom! C and C++ aren't scripting languages.

It is a common pattern among those that don't want to learn build systems, which isn't exactly the same.

In my experience. I've run into the issue quite often. You find some library, it has its own build system (meaning not the one you're using). It has special rules etc... Integrating into your build system is time consuming and frustrating. Compiler errors from includes, linker errors, etc..

None of that happens with a single file C++ library.


Yeah, and?

There isn't a single build system without issues, other than siloed languages without language standards.

Header libraries only started to be a thing when scripting generation educated in Python and Ruby during the 2010's turned into compiled languages.


Or among those who want to support any build system

We managed during the last 20 years just fine.

We can also argue C++ is not a scripting language, which is what is approach is all about.

When C and C++ were the main programming languages during the 1990's, and commercial compilers abounded strangely we could manage handling all those build systems approaches.


Because usually that is OS specific and not portable to be part of standard library that is supposed to work everywhere.

Well, if it made use of any UB alongside its code, and it gets compiled with the latest version of a modern compiler in -O3, it might, or might not.

Using Linux since Slackware 2.0 in 1995, which rule?

Me thinking this was a Forth IDE implementated in Swift UI.

In many countries you are only allowed to call yourself a Software Engineer if you actually have a professional title.

It is countries like US where anyone can call themselves whatever they feel like that have devalued our profession.

I have been on the liability side ever since, people don't keep broken cars unless they cannot afford anything else, software is nothing special, other than lack of accountability.


Exactly this - I had a role in a multinational, US-founded company, however - I was based in Canada - our title had the name "engineer" contained within it. We were NOT by any means certified professional engineers according to any regulatory body - we were great at our jobs, but that was the reality.

We were NOT allowed to refer to our job title when deployed to the province of Quebec, which has strong regulations around the use of the term "engineer". It was fine - we still went, did our jobs, satisfied our customers and fixed their issues.


And the people of Quebec are much safer for it. /s

This divide between Canada and the US has existed since the birth of software engineering as a thing. Where is the evidence the protected name has done anything useful for either Canadian software engineers or its citizens?


It's really hard to disentangle the myriad of factors that go into the differences that we see in life expectency and quality of life between Canada and the United States but it wouldn't surprise me that this is one of those ones that accounts for some miniscule amount of the difference.

>> In many countries you are only allowed to call yourself a Software Engineer if you actually have a professional title.

Which countries are those? Are you also only allowed to call yourself a Musician if you a Conservatory Degree?


Portugal, Germany, Canada, Switzerland are the ones I am aware of.

Software Engineering degrees are certified by the Engineering Order, universities cannot call themselves that just because they feel like it, and any kind of legal binding documents when notarised required the professional validity.


First of all, hardly anyone cares (default email signatures etc.pp even if the people don't want that - but you said legally bindign, and I think that just usually never happens.).

And second, at least in Germany it's also somewhat of a bullshit situation that 80% of the people who do a "normal" Computer Science degree don't have that (Diplom-Informatiker/M.Sc), but the 20% who happen to study at a certain uni in a certain degree (that is mostly related, but not the default Computer Science/Software Engineering one) are/were getting their "Diplom-Ingenieur".


Thanks to Hamburg you can call yourself an Ingenieur with a bachelor of science (German source: https://www.bit01.de/blog/informatiker-ingenieur-titel/ ... although it's 5 years old now. Should still be valid.)

They regulate the title not the profession.

I mentioned legal signatures for a reason.

No Software Engineer in title or in real skills will do such a thing.

Sign project contracts with Eng. and find out when liability comes into play.

Why the glib dismissal when you most certainly live in a country where the use of titles like 'doctor', 'dentist', 'officer' or 'lawyer' is most certainly regulated?

This isn't really that exceptional and as someone from a place where not just anyone can call themselves engineer I'm always baffled when people think that it is.


Your comment completely misses the point of my question. Those countries are regulating the title not the profession.

Here is the difference: the Doctors have a liability for their medical practice, the real Engineers meaning those doing Bridges and Buildings that can kill thousands of people if they fall, have a professional obligation and responsability on the outcomes of their designs and implementation.

I can guarantee you, no Software Engineer from Portugal to Germany will be willing to guarantee the behavior and fitness for purpose, of any System or Software product they develop :-) As you very well can see, if you bother to read the full details on the Software License disclaimers of any software from any large company. From Microsoft to Oracle, IBM and others.

As such those are Software Engineers on title only, what is convenient to be hired for post within Government and similar...


That is the thing software can kill, or destroy lives in presence of bugs.

Again, sign any legal documents as engineer, and a court visit might turn into reality.


If Oracle, IBM or Microsoft after 50 years, and employing thousands of Software Engineers ...include the standard disclaimers on their Software, I dont think those in title only should make much fuss of the Software Engineer badge...

Only because so far they haven't been called into court as much as they should.

Thankfully stuff like Crowdstrike and Cloudflare are making governments pay attention to industry losses caused by malpractice.


Then maybe you shouldn't be allowed to rely on such software not causing utter carnage when you're implementing some infrastructure thing via software?

Also note that such warranty disclaiming "fitness for any purpose" is not possible if you sell for money software that you say is for such an infrastructure situation, at least in e.g. Germany. That's not from the license but from the sale though.


> no Software Engineer from Portugal to Germany will be willing to guarantee the behavior and fitness for purpose, of any System or Software product they develop

Then they shouldn't call themselves engineers.

It's not really a big deal and I don't understand the confusion around this.


>> Then they shouldn't call themselves engineers

That is the whole point. :-) Real Software Engineers do not exist other than in title. Some institutions and governments are arbitraging those who can use the title...


>It is countries like US where anyone can call themselves whatever they feel like that have devalued our profession.

How have they devalued the profession when the labor of that professions is worth the most in the US?


If I start calling "bananas" "apples" then I devalue the meaning of the word "apple". You can't differentiate which I'm referring to.

If I start calling "bananas" "apples" the price at the store doesn't change.

I think you don't understand what the word "value" means. You understand one meaning, but it has more than one.


Professional labour value isn't synonymous with late stage capitalism without ethics or morals.

Now if you mean for own much one is willing to sell themselves to late stage capitalism, producing low quality products and entshtification, maybe that is the bang for buck right there.


How do you explain the low quality of software coming out of all of the other countries you have mentioned with protected titles?

The software is happening regardless of title and you haven’t given any examples of the value of where kissing the ring to get the certification has been critical to Canada/Germany/Switzerland producing better software.


Are all programmers called engineers in these countries?

You've made such a wild assumption that I'm convinced you're more interested in fighting then discussing


There are engineers, and there are brick layers.

You mean Android's great quality, or Chrome CVEs by the way?


Just because you have an engineering degree doesn't mean your code is of better quality and security than someone without an engineering degree.

Signed, someone with an CS engineering degree.


It surely means one has the responsibility to be one as such, having had the education that others have not.

>Now if you mean for own much one is willing to sell themselves to late stage capitalism

The government is the one selling you out to late stage capitalism through rampant inflation, business and fiscal regulations and deregulation, offshoring, and various nefarious policies on housing and labor migration.

People just adapt to survive by taking the best paying jobs, since voting clearly doesn't help them.

Don't tell me you're not developing SW for the highest bidder and would take the salary of a fast food worker out of class empathy just to stick it to the evil capitalist.


That is the difference between the US mentality of the winner takes it all that has given us late stage capitalism, entshitification and Trump, and most of the world.

Quality of life and health matters more than anything else.

After a certain point, more money doesn't bring any of that, one is not taking the money into the grave, other than build a mausoleum.


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