I'm moving to Chicago in a few months. Are there certain neighborhoods that should be avoided on the basis of corrupt police activity? I wonder because I could see neighborhoods that are relatively safe in terms of civilian crime, but cops posted in that area might have nothing better to do than mess with its inhabitants.
I'll be honest with you... Chicago is very much a place where you take your chances.
You can live in Streeterville for example, as rayiner alluded to in another post... but what happens when you go out with friends??? What if they want to go someplace in say... Wrigleyville... some night??? You're walking back to your car, or trying to get a taxi back to the loop, and you cross too close in front of a police officer, or his vehicle. (Basically, the same thing that bbarn was talking about in his post.) Even though it's completely inadvertent, and done with no ill intent, I've seen this very thing go decidedly bad for people in the past. It seems that it didn't go too well for bbarn either.
So if you're asking for guarantees... I think that reasonable people will concede that there are none.
The best advice is to be aware of your surroundings, and be aware that police are extremely dangerous and best avoided. Just do the common sense kind of things... allow police the path if you see them walking on the sidewalk. Don't look directly at an officer. When approached by a police officer, be extremely deferential. And for goodness sake, if you see police abusing power don't try to intercede. Don't let them see you recording or videoing the incident. When you have an opportunity later... just write an anonymous letter to a newspaper with the video or something. Etc etc etc.
Also... not trying to be even more of a dark cloud here, but I think a word of warning is appropriate on this particular point... if you are black and male, and assuming you are professional as you are a hacker news reader... I'm not entirely certain any of this will work for you in any case.
I grew up in Chicago, my family is still there, and most of my colleagues are based there. There is weird pseudo-Stockholm syndrome phenomenon where people just accept that the corruption is widespread and unavoidable.
Any chance this contributed to the Dark Knight being filmed there? Choosing Chicago for the cityscape makes sense by itself but the film focused heavily on corruption.
when i visited Chicago, it was felt like it is a matter of local pride when journalist on radio was telling something about corruption in the school district. Like "look how big! how brazen it is! we can do corruption like the best out there!"... pretty much like Jon Stewart in that bit about New Jersey corruption.
I left after only 2.5 years. I didn't even have any watershed experiences. I just eventually heeded the voice in my head that whispered "get out of here" on a regular basis.
So I left, and I didn't exactly stop hearing that voice, but at least it said "this is pathetic" instead.
It didn't shut up entirely until I moved again.
I can barely even stand to drive around Chicago on the tristate tollway now.
What if you are flat broke? What if you have an elderly dependent in a nearby nursing home? A relative in a nearby prison? A child in the local schools?
"bullies, criminals and injustice" are the police. this whole rather depressing discussion is dedicated to the consequences of standing up to police. again, your choice is simple - bend or be shot.
first 3 bullets in the chest, then 6 in already dead body, then taser the corpse. policemen successfully argued self-defense and was charged with attempted (???) murder. the only reason why this made to trial, was because video was released to public. otherwise he would have walked.
I thought they were supposed to use a taser first and live fire as a last resort? What in the world were they thinking? The guy is clearly not conscious/possibly already dead and then they taser him?
This is going to look bad. I'd better tase the corpse so I can claim I tried non-lethal means first, but the guy was unstoppable and I had to kill him.
It may be different in the more rural regions of Russia, but I'm from Saint-Petersburg, and I've never seen anything similar to a police officer go "in 7-11's, local shops, etc, just walk in, take what the want, and leave". They're usually civil, and sometimes helpful (you can ask directions, etc).
There is corruption here, but it seems to be more prevalent among the civil cervants and the higher ranking police officials.
Chicago neighborhoods are a useful designation for access to services, housing prices, likelihood of being shot on the way to the subway, being able to walk your dog at night, distance to the nearest ANYTHING besides a liquor store and check cashing store... but Chicago police are everywhere and nowhere. You don't call them, they call you.
They'll show up 5 times a day to question the family of the drug dealer who lives in your basement apartment and can somehow not figure out which unit it is... so you live in constant fear they're gonna come break down your door. They'll ticket and boot every car on a street despite a clearly visible permit on half of them...
But you'll hear gunshots down the block and ... nothing. You'll have an emergency and you won't get a response for an hour.
The quieter the neighborhood, the less likely it is you'll ever interact with a police officer.
If you're in your mid-20s, the typical places to end up would be Uky Village, Logan Square, Roscoe Village, Lincoln Square, and Uptown.
You wouldn't want to live in Streeterville or Edgewater for reasons beyond the number of police there. If you're seeing lots of police in Wrigleyville, it's because the neighborhood is overrun with drunk overgrown fraternity members. If you actually live in Wrigleyville, there's a good chance you like the police, because Wrigleyville drunks are pretty fucking annoying.
The kinds of police interactions characterized by things like the Laquan McDonald shooting are more or less confined to the south and west sides of the city, where you're not going to move anyways, because nobody is moving there.
There aren't neighborhoods in Chicago that are low-crime and high-police-violence.
I agree with the other commenter on this thread who points out that Chicago is just like every other big city. One of the things that makes Chicago distinctive is (unfortunately) the legacy of segregation and redlining from the 60s and 70s, which gutted whole large areas of the city. There aren't large sections of Manhattan or Brooklyn with virtually no white residents (at least, no area as large as the Austin/Lawndale neighborhoods). It's an extremely unfortunate situation for people that don't have the means to get out of those neighborhoods, and at the same time pretty much entirely shields white people from problems with CPD.
If you are white and in the wrong place, the police may approach you and tell you where you ought to be and how to get there. If you're white in white Chicago, police pretty much don't exist. They're who you call before your insurance company whenever a property crime occurs, and that's only because your insurer makes you.
If you're black or Hispanic and in the wrong place, the police will approach you and try to find any reason. Any reason to what? Any reason to anything, that's what.
The racial segregation in Chicago is no longer enforced by real estate agents, redlining, and covenants. You can rent wherever you like in the city. But how often do you want to be forced to talk to a cop when you step outside?
It's hard to think of a neighborhood within the limits of the city of Chicago where you could be "out of place" for being black or hispanic, since we have huge black and hispanic populations. Beverly, maybe? But that seems like an exception that proves the rule, since Beverly is effectively a south suburb.
I do not at all doubt that if you are an "urban" looking black person wandering around a suburb like Kenilworth you are likely to be harassed by the police. There are Chicago suburbs that are somewhat defined by whiteness.
But even the whitest neighborhoods in Chicago have pretty significant African-American or Hispanic populations as well (there aren't that many black families living in Lakeview, for instance, but there's a large number of Hispanic families there).
Also, no cop has ever warned me to get out of a dangerous neighborhood in Chicago. Has that happened to you? Where were you?
It supposedly happened to a friend of the spouse who doesn't have a lot of common sense. I have no reason to question its veracity, because if anyone was ever in need of a professionally delivered assessment of "WTF are you doing here this late?", it was her. The cops were apparently able to make the assessment of "drunk and stupid" over "trying to buy drugs".
Though now that I think of it, maybe it was both.
And thinking about the other thing, I don't think I have ever seen a potential "just for being black" stop anywhere south of Belmont, either. So I guess that can't be pinned on CPD. Maybe the commercial centers in Rosemont, near O'Hare? Not sure if that's in the official city limits or not.
It is worthwhile to note that you might be black and "out of place" in your own neighborhood if you are outside in your own yard with a camera recording while the police are doing something.
> If you're seeing lots of police in Wrigleyville, it's because the neighborhood is overrun with drunk overgrown fraternity members. If you actually live in Wrigleyville, there's a good chance you like the police, because Wrigleyville drunks are pretty fucking annoying.
Wrigley isn't a good place to drink at. The cops know about how shitty it gets and they're sitting there waiting to break up fights, call the ambulance for people drinknig too much, and ticket out of control people.
Also, something that hasn't been said yet: Don't move to Englewood. That's where most of the crimes occur.
Because the question is where can you move where you won't come into contact with police all that often. Edgewater isn't bad, and I'd live there, but it's higher crime than Uptown and has a higher police presence.
Some of these posts here are a joke. Chicago is like any other major US city, probably better than the mid-tier cities I've spent time living in in terms of police and crime. It's simply very much two cities and you only hear news stories about one.
Just like anywhere else, don't act like an idiot or seek out trouble in rough areas and 99% of your interactions with police will be fine.
You're on HackerNews so presumably you make money and won't be living on the South Side or somewhere like it. If you're living in Lincoln Park, Wicker Park, Streeterville, etc. you will likely never witness a bad police interaction the entire time you live there - unless you go looking for it. Live in some of the more marginal neighborhoods and those you fear will almost assuredly not be the police.
It's like anywhere else - dressed like a young professional, out with other similar friends, not being confrontational and get caught doing a minor infraction? You'll be warned and maybe yelled at. Do the same acting like fools and giving attitude back? Yeah, you might be taught a lesson and spend the night in jail.
I've had plenty of interactions with CPD between myself and my drunk friends in my earlier days. The cops acted just like you would expect and desire them to in all but one situation. That situation was a friend jumping a security gate on the El to photograph some train stuff. He went to jail for the night.
As with everything like this the hyperbole is just nuts. If you're a poor minority living on the South Side my answer may be different, but for the typical Hackernews frequenter Chicago is no different than NYC or LA, and honestly in terms of "living in the city" you are likely to find far safer and wealthy neighborhoods than you will in the "inner city" of any other mid-tier NFL town in the US.
That said it's a big city. If you're used to living in a big city, Chicago is just another one with better than normal public transit. Same problems and concerns as anywhere else. You can find neighborhoods that have similar crime rates to the most wealthy suburbs there are, and neighborhoods with a higher homicide rate than Iraq. The latter gets you the police department in those areas you would expect.
>Do the same acting like fools and giving attitude back? Yeah, you might be taught a lesson and spend the night in jail.
It's hilarious that you find this acceptable.
Unless I break the law and am arrested, there is no way in hell I should spend the night in jail to be "taught a lesson". My attitude or dress are completely irrelevant.
I mean, did you even read the article? No one cares about your positive, one-time personal experience with the police. Joke, indeed.
I would second this. I grew up in a suburb, but visited the city regularly in my teens and 20's. I have a lot of friends who live in chicago now and pretty much none of them (including hard core stoners to well paid financial investors) have had any trouble with police.
I feel like half of these comments are made up on here, or they were going to a place everyone knows is a bad place.
Hell, Joliet (the suburb I grew up in) had a higher crime rate.
The safest neighborhood in Chicago wrt police if you ask me is Hyde Park. This is of course if you are affiliated with the university. You get a free pass there because the police are paid extra to pamper.
I wouldn't say so. I have lived mostly north, and sometimes west, and found it to be generally the same.
Pick your neighborhood based on other factors.. closeness to the CTA trains, quality of food options, and general cleanliness. I've found these to be pretty good indicators of overall safety/quality of life in a neighborhood. (I won't get into the cause/effect argument, just saying that as a newcomer they are good measuring points)
> Are there certain neighborhoods that should be avoided on the basis of corrupt police activity?
No. It's largely a very safe city and a great place to live in. I've lived here for 16 years (2 in Lakeview, 1 in Uptown, 3 in the West Loop and 10 in Lincoln Square). If I can help answer any questions about the various neighborhoods, you can reach me via jeff@judge.io.
Lifelong Chicagoan here. I've never, ever had these issues and all my run-ins with cops have been fairly uneventful, if not pleasant. Chicago cops have better things to do than give traffic tickets usually and the last time I got pulled over (blew through red from a fast yellow) and I was just let go with a warning.
Recently, there is a mentally unstable person in my neighborhood and he decided to sit on my porch and light pieces of paper on fire one day. I called and they were there in 15 minutes and said they could do what they can to help this guy. The cops seemed geniunly concerned about his and my safety. I was floored by how well this call went.
I live in one of the decent, but not wealthy neighborhoods. Chicago is about 1/3rd horrible ghetto and 1/3rd marginal and 1/3rd decent. Life in those other 2/3rd's is very, very different. If you're outside of the typical "northside" neighborhoods the cops are much tougher and much more paranoid about being hurt or killed. I lived in one of those neighborhoods and there's a completely different vibe there. Cops pull up with 3+ squads at every call, take up defensive positions, hands close to weapons, etc. A dog attacked mine when I lived in Humboldt Park and the cops came out and were cool about it, but clearly on edge as I lived in gang territory. In other neighborhoods, I don't see this edge, or the defensive tactices. So yeah, there's something here about cop safety in marginal neighborhoods. I imagine provoking these guys in these neighborhoods leads to bad outcomes.
Also, not to attack the GP, but there is a Chicago cyclist personality I see frequently. They do dick moves with their bikes, cause accidents, never obey any traffic law, scream at pedestrians, have unbelievable senses of entitlements, kick/punch cars, and constantly pretend to be innocent and are often incredibly confrontational when criticized. I can't imagine cops being nice to these people and the GP sounds like one of these people, which may explain many of his experiences. Chicago cyclists have a bad rep for a reason.
That said, I have next to zero fear of the police and lots of fear in regards to the high criminality and massive gang population here. I've been intimidated and threatened on the train multiple times, car/house robbed, had to walk lady friends to their homes/cars many times not out of courtesy but because there was a known rapist loose or the gang kids were clearly looking to start trouble that night, have been uncomfortably close to a gang shooting at least once, hit 3x by DUI drivers, etc. I suspect Chicago cops are tough because Chicago has so much serious crime. This isn't the suburbs.
Wikipedia: Chicago has more gang members than any other city in the United States: 150,000. The city had 532 murders in 2012.
Chicago tribune: Chicago police officers shot 22 people in 2015, eight of them fatally.
532 vs 8, guys. Oh, 150,000 gang members is 5% of the population. That's right, this is a major city where 1 in 20 are gang members.
That said, the powerful Chicago police union is pretty horrible. It exists to protect the worst of the worst, out of some misplaced sense of pride. I would love to see public sector unions eliminated in the city, if not nationwide. They just make things worse for everyone. Society needs an alternative to the union system in the public sector. I find it bothersome that all the recent ant-police sentiment still has not percolated to the police unions. I suspect this is a political thing where liberals can't attack their own institutions. So expect zero real reform.
FWIW, I am darker skinned and do not pass as "white." I'm typically clocked as a Latino. I've always owned older cars , dress very casually outside of work, and live way below my means. I doubt I was treated in any special way because of status/race. I don't fall into the preferred categories.
"Also, not to attack the GP, but there is a Chicago cyclist personality I see frequently. They do dick moves with their bikes, cause accidents, never obey any traffic law, scream at pedestrians, and constantly pretend to be innocent and are often incredibly confrontational when criticized. I can't imagine cops being nice to these people and the GP sounds like one of these people, which may explain many of his experiences."
No, I'm the mild mannered, just let me get home without dying type. Stopping at lights, yielding at stop signs, pedestrian in crosswalks. Not in a particular hurry to get anywhere usually, overweight, calm demeanor. What makes me "sound like" one of these people to you? You'll note I mention this is the total sum of my interactions over 20 years in this city. I have yet to have a positive one, but still, there aren't many to speak of. Also, only the one experience there had anything to do with being on a bicycle.
As a pedestrian and a driver... screw the bikers. 95% of them are really shitty. The other 5% are well experienced in biking, and they hate the 95% of the other ones as well.
couldn't figure out why you were downvoted, your comment seemed to add to the conversation... until I got to
the GP sounds like one of these people, which may explain many of his experiences.
I'm not sure where you get that from what was written in the post, or why you think it would add value to the conversation, but in the future, I'd recommend keeping in mind that unjustified accusations directed at individuals render pretty much anything and everything else you write moot; they become what people take away from what you've expressed.
Agreed that last sentence wasn't helpful, but neither are the downvotes for him explaining exactly what the situation likely was.
Maybe the OP is a great cyclist. Maybe he's not. It's immaterial.
What is material is trying to provide some context into why that happened, if it did. Lets just say as a fellow Chicago resident I also immediately had the same suspicions that you were responding to.
I used to commute daily as a cyclist, until I moved here. I sold my bike, as I don't want to be associated with these people whatsoever. They are the most entitled, aggressive, and actively dangerous group of commuters I've witnessed. I've lived in Amsterdam. This is not how bikers should behave.
So to me, it was simply providing context to those who don't live here for stories that don't make any logical sense. Cyclists here get absolutely zero benefit of the doubt from me, and I imagine that attitude can get into a cop on a bad day as well. Certainly doesn't justify it, but it explains it.
Cycling's a big part of my life. I've been involved in advocacy groups, racing organizations, commuted most of my life, etc. I'm also a fairly smart guy. I recognize the difference between being out training fast/racing, and riding my bike to work. The two things have different applications, and I do them in appropriate settings.
I think I'm a pretty great cyclist, and by great I mean that I know when to do what, and consider my impact on those around me as much as myself.
The problem here is this is just one example of the problem with police abuse in general. Police should be capable of not defaulting to biases against groups of people because they need to be by their job description. Whether that's "all bikers are entitled and actively dangerous" or "all blacks are suspicious unless otherwise proven", the sentiment is the same. They must be held to a higher standard of judgment because of the authority they are given.
PS - If everyone gave up cycling because they didn't want to be associated with those who do it poorly, not only would that be a shame, it'd leave nothing but the belligerents you speak of.
You are literally comparing cops to gangbangers (oh, but at least they aren't as bad). If you are doing that, you might as well do it per capita. Are there 150,000 cops in Chicago as well?
Probably for "Also, not to attack the GP", followed by "the GP sounds like one of these people" who "do dick moves with their bikes, cause accidents, never obey any traffic law, scream at pedestrians, have unbelievable senses of entitlements, kick/punch cars, and constantly pretend to be innocent and are often incredibly confrontational when criticized."
