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Sounds to me like you enter conversations with a pre-made idea of what you want the conclusion to be.

Questions to ask yourself if you feel that way regularly:

Have you considered that various shortcomings might hold different weights to people depending on their background, experience in other adjacent domains, etc? That what is factual for you might not be so to others?

How do you know that your analysis of the shortcomings are correct/pertinent? That the person you're talking to hasn't delved in it as deeply as you have and just reached a different conclusion? Are you the close minded one for having decided early in the conversation that because you've thought about it in a certain way in the past, any interlocutor who thinks of it differently is necessarily wrong and stubborn?



Note how I said ‘after enough conversing‘.

I do give the benefit of the doubt for as long as I can. I admit to understanding positions that are premised on different values. I have a hard time when once I understand the values, inaccurate steps are taken to reach a false conclusion.

What I’m talking about is more akin to talking with someone making a mistake in a proof, being pointed out the mistake, but still digging their feet in to not admit the mistake.

I’m fine if assumptions aren’t shared, but not when conclusions don’t follow logically from assumptions.

Being open minded isn’t akin to listening to everything and anything- there are limits.

So no, it is not that ‘I enter conversations with a pre-made idea of what [I] want the conclusion to be.’


Actually, you likely do. You appear to expect rational self consistency.

Not all humans present that. They have reasons, some of which may just be their nature.


> Actually, you likely do.

Well sure everyone does, to some degree. But I thought dyarosla's clarification was quite sound, particularly this part: I admit to understanding positions that are premised on different values.

In my experience, a lot of people are completely ignorant of this important idea, that values (or axioms) are a crucially important part of disagreements, that someone may be approaching the same general topic from a very different perspective than you. Not only do some people not know/appreciate this, I've encountered several people who completely reject this idea if you point it out to them.


I am not judging on "sound", just pointing out that self consistency is the core exception.

That statement on "values", coupled with the other ones, all support strong self consistency.

How people evaluate things can, does, will vary from a highly rational POV.


Is logical consistency not a core tenant of a rational argument?

I’ll concede that some people don’t value logical consistency - but that doesn’t make them more rational in their arguments.

If there is subjectivity in a ‘logical inference’, I’ll err on the side of being open to it.


It absolutely is.

However, people are often not entirely rational creatures.

Advocacy, for a very effective example, is a combination of reason, emotion and character.

How people feel matters. Who they are interacting with and or referencing matters.

Roll all that up, and we are likely to encounter people who are not self consistent.

That is OK, human. I just noted that being a predetermination, that's all.

Secondly, there is no requirement they be more rational in their arguments. They may not even see something as one, depending on what it is.

They may, for example, seek better mutual understanding.


I readily affirm that feelings are most important, but it's pretty common to refuse to abandon one's feelings or one's facts and logic in the name of consistency.

It's not that someone can expect you to feel differently because they've presented a logical argument. That's not likely or expected.


Does any of that matter?

The OP said they did not predetermine, and I just pointed out that they do. (And I do not care)

No worries, just information.

Understanding others helps considerably when having conversations IMHO. My comments here speak to that.

Just know others may, or may not make the value judgements presented in this thread, that's all.

It is far more likely than you think. Consider a politically charged issue, some matter where religion is involved...

This all just is not the set piece implied.




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