I just learned that Greece is called Yunanistan in Turkey.
And as long as the English speaking world still butchers German town names (Hanover, Hamelin, Nuremberg instead of Hannover, Hameln, Nürnberg) I think it is legit to call the country Turkey.
The whole Middle East has called it some variation of Yunan (Yunanistan specifically meaning "Land of the Yunan") for about 3000 years. It derives from Ionian[0] and roughly specified the land Ionia[1] region and the name is baked into everything (modern and historical) from Hebrew to Persian to Arabic to Assyrian.
On the back of this, though, in many countries in the Middle East the Latin names are used for most countries in Europe, including Germany, which is referred to as Alemaan (from proto-Germanic Alemanniz[2]).
The region that's now called "Iran" was called Persia by the West for at least 2000 years, until the Shah of Iran requested the world to refer to the country as "Iran", which is the term used by the Iranians.
As a German I'm fine with Alemaan (note that the German name for Germany is nothing like Germany either).
But it's worth noting that in German "Alman" has become the equivalent of "gammon" in the UK, especially among immigrants and in youth culture. I.e. a derogatory slur for a specific type of native-born person (usually men) holding naïvely reactionary views. Not necessarily intentionally racist but always ignorant.
> The whole Middle East has called it some variation of Yunan (Yunanistan specifically meaning "Land of the Yunan") for about 3000 years. It derives from Ionian
> the name is baked into everything (modern and historical) from Hebrew to Persian to Arabic to Assyrian.
The term is also used in Han China for the Greek kingdom that came to exist near them. There would have been no real awareness of the original region of Ionia, though there was rudimentary awareness of the Roman Empire a bit later.
> why don't we refer to Germans as Deutsche in English, call the country Deutschland instead of Germany?
Because the Germans aren’t throwing a fit about how other countries are addressing them in their languages, while the Turks currently are.
Given how Turkey currently has insane inflation and internal political turmoil with Erdogan’s opposition rising, there’s a line of thought that has war as the only way to maintain power for Erdogan, much like how a coup solidified his power in 2016.
Turkey’s neighbors probably should start feeling like Ukraine before February, or like Poland before September 1939.
Some other fun country butcherings: Magyarország, Hrvatska, Suomi, Ellada. For which the English names are the oh-so-obvious Hungary, Croatia, Finland, and Greece. I haven't even left Europe yet!
Forget towns. Talk about the fucking name of the country.
Actually, the name is "Deutschland" (if you leave out the political decorations declaring it a federal republic).
One should think, knowing where the word comes from, that the english name would be "Dutchland". But it isn't, instead they call someone else "Dutch". Admittedly a neighbouring country with some shared history and origins waaay back then, but still. Tyskland is great, thanks to everyone using a variation of that.
Then there is "Germany". Way back then, when the romans tried and failed to establish a longterm presence on the other side of the rivers rhine and danube that might have been ok, but that was 2000 years ago. For at least the last 500 years, "deutsch" or some variation thereof was official. Germans are also only part of the historic inhabitants of what forms modern-day Germany, there are also a few Slavic tribes in there. Also, there are many German tribes that didn't settle in what is modern-day Germany, instead they now form the nordic states, the Netherlands, parts of Switzerland and Austria. So mostly wrong, no fish.
Alemania is even more wrong, because that actually only talks about the southwestern german tribes, in current southwest Germany and northeastern Switzerland. "Alemannisch" strictly only describes the traditions of that region in german. Nothing else.
Then there is Niemcy and stuff. I've been told it means something like "mutes" or "the ones you cannot comprehend". I'm not sure if that is supposed to be an insult or a compliment, but really, after you started talking to us you couldn't be arsed to ask what we call ourselves?
Talking about insults: Saksa might be considered a compliment or an insult in Germany, depending on where you are. Historically, saxon tribes settled in the northwest (later England, but that is not relevant here). This corresponds to a part of what currently is the German land Niedersachsen. There are two Länder that are called something with "sachsen", but they are faking it to get a grab at the former glory. Talking about "glory", it is quite the opposite in southern Germany, there nobody likes "Sachsen" and considers them the worst kind of "Preussen". Which are all considered insults there.
There are a few others, getting more and more weird until:
Navajo: Béésh Bich’ahii Bikéyah ("Metal Cap-wearer Land"), in reference to Stahlhelm-wearing German soldiers.[1]
I can get behind that. But the rest, please stop it, it is "Deutschland". Or I might have to wear my metal cap again ;)
>Then there is Niemcy and stuff. I've been told it means something like "mutes" or "the ones you cannot comprehend". I'm not sure if that is supposed to be an insult or a compliment, but really, after you started talking to us you couldn't be arsed to ask what we call ourselves?
It was a common name for all foreigners, not just Germans. During a certain era, German traders were the most common foreigners in Slavic lands, so the name stuck with Germans.
I love how it's a similar origin story to the word 'Barbarian' - deriving from anyone who wasn't Greek, and so whose language sounded like "baa-baa baa-baa"
Yes, and Finns don't call their country "Finland" — Finnish language, after all, doesn't uses "f" natively — they call it "Suomi" and they call Russia "Venäjä" (even though Wends really don't have much to do with it). So what? Names are arbitrary, especially names in different languages, that's just how they are.
As the Russian proverb says, "you can call me even 'kettle', just don't put me on the stove".
The Germanic tribe who invaded and conquered the lands currently known as France, forming (at least) the aristocracy and then naming it after themselves? Isn't that a reasonable name for the country? I mean, it also happened in England (i.e. land of the Angles) - which historically would have been Britannia when France was Gaul.
> They call their country France, named after the Germanic tribe of the Franks.
You mean, the Germans who call it “Frankreich”?
There were several Frankish tribes, who occupied over the years regions from Thuringia all the way to Gascony. You might have heard of Clovis, king of the Franks, baptised at Reims and who made Paris the capital of his kingdom, and founded the Frankish Merovingian dynasty that ruled almost all of what is France now for 2 centuries. Gauls had been heavily romanised well before that point anyway.
You should probably read a bit in a subject before trying to be clever.
Eh. The name "Bulgaria" derives from Bulgars, who were a nomadic Turkic tribe from areas around the Caspian Sea that came to conquer the country.
For another example, the name "Russia" is derived from "Rus", which itself appears to be a derivative of the Norse "Ruslaw" - again, because it was the Norse who came, conquered, and became the ruling elite.
> There are two Länder that are called something with "sachsen", but they are faking it to get a grab at the former glory.
Let me guess: the one of the three Länder that are called something with "sachsen" that you forget is Niedersachsen, even despite spelling it out literally one word before that sentence! Being born in the only saxon capital of the of the country I was born in I've made a habit out of confusing saxons from the east by claiming that I'm one of them, never gets old.
(yeah, and I was close to posting that wiki link myself, so happy that nobody has started referring to the country by what it's most famous for)
I'd strongly prefer is this 'butchering' would be happening only in cases the original name is literally un-pronounciable in given language.
But no, everybody must be pissing on their little sandbox - Neuchatel has to be Neuburg, although both are perfectly pronounciable in both languages. US has to be États-Unis. Practically every effin' language has this.
I'd say using original names and how they sound shows some proper respect towards given place, country, people, culture and its history. Shows you actually make some effort, and also shows having some class. But I can only wish this was a widespread opinion.
Especially when the circumflex has been left out so you have no reminder of how used to be written and pronounced.
États-Unis is quite respectful as it literally describes how the country wants to be considered: United States. It is only if you don’t find the term meaningful that way you would want someone to uncomprehendingly parrot the sounds.
Good to know. But it doesn't matter in the context of this discussion. It still means Land of Turkeys in Turkish. Not really of course, just like Turkey does not mean turkey in English.
Would you campaign for it to be written as Hannofer in English so that non-German speakers will not butcher the current pronunciation.
Obviously there are long historical reasons for language diffs of city names and I imagine many predates the nation states who now house those cities. Changes in local pronunciation is also a thing, and those changes are of course not always propagated to other languages
That's not butchering, it means that the places you list have been sufficiently relevant to speakers of the language in question at the time spelling stabilized to have their own name. The phrase "Mailand oder Madrid" isn't famous for it not being "Milano oder Madrid".
They didn't always call themselves Hellenes, at one point the more common names were Achaeans (hence Egyptian "Ekwesh"), Danaans and Argives. The word "Hellenes" is only found once in Homer. Or often people called them by their specific tribe, such as Ionians or Dorians. Some languages use older names because that's what they are used to. It seems that country borders, politics, self-identity etc. change faster than language.
You're right in that the term Hellenes appears later, however it is worth noting that there was still some sense of collective identity, even that far back, as evidenced by the tribes coming together when facing external threats (e.g. the Persians, or even against Troy in the Iliad), common language, culture, competitions that everyone participated in, etc. etc.
And as long as the English speaking world still butchers German town names (Hanover, Hamelin, Nuremberg instead of Hannover, Hameln, Nürnberg) I think it is legit to call the country Turkey.