I currently use a (automatic) borrowed car from the shop while my (manual) car is being repaired. I mostly do city-driving.

One of the biggest issues with the automatic is stop-and-go traffic. It's absolutely trash at accelerating smoothly but fast, and I have no choice but to either go very slowly forward to not make it janky, or really aggressive acceleration. With a manual car, smooth-but-fast acceleration is easy to achieve, but with this (Audi Q3) borrow car, it seems short of impossible to achieve.

More pet-peeves of automatic VS manual I'm experiencing are outlined here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32591426 but smooth city driving is probably what I miss the most currently, as that is mostly how I spend my driving.

I'm not exaggerating when I say this is the first time in my life I've heard anyone say manuals are better than automatics in stop-and-go traffic.

Audi Q3 does not have a representative modern automatic transmission.

You should try a car with a CVT from the last 2-3-ish years to feel the difference.

The latest subaru forester is absolutely insane when it comes to how much control you have over acceleration. I can creep forward at agonizingly slow speeds without riding the brake, stomp it for mostly instant torque, and everything in between. It's way smoother than any manual, automatic 6-spd, or DSG I've ever driven.

Oh and you can downshift to engine brake and the Sport model has flappy paddles to boot.

There are still a lot of more-or-less-shit automatics being manufactured. Even if they collectively has gotten quite a bit better over the years.

The six-speed automatic in my KIA for example, is from the past three years and it is not entirely great. It is perfectly fine 98% of the time, but those last two percent...

* Shifting speed is highly unpredictable on kick-down

* In certain temperatures it will slam the shift from first to second even when taking of very softly

* It will randomly decide to stay in a needlessly low gear on long, gentle inclines, even though there is plenty of power in higher gears if you force an up-shift in manual mode

* On low-speed sharp inclines (like my own residental street) it desperately stays in second gear to the point of almost stalling the engine, before does a brutal panic-downshift to first gear

But in standard highway driving or city-stop-and-go it is really nice.

I'm not sure what country you are in. In the US, I believe the Q3 still always comes with a torque-converter automatic. A quick search seems to show lots of people on enthusiast boards complaining about the shift programming on the current generation. But, also lots of contradictory reports. It makes me think it is a UX issue where the programming works for some operators' "pedal language" and not others.

We have an older generation Q3, which replaced a slightly smaller car that had a manual transmission and similar turbo 4-cylinder engine. I was a little bitter about this marital compromise in the very beginning, but learned how the car behaves and have no problems today. I only use the "manual" gear selection for speed control on steep grades. To me, it can provide smoother acceleration than I ever got in 30 years of driving manuals. It shifts quicker and with more continuous power delivery compared to any manual operation I've achieved or witnessed as a passenger. The change is learning to anticipate and speak to the car with the throttle instead of anticipating and speaking with the clutch pedal and stick.

For fleet efficiency reasons, these modern automatics will prefer high gears and also use clutches to lock-out the torque converter and avoid slippage. Combine that with fuel saving coasting modes and you can potentially reach states where a small turbo engine is at low RPM with low boost pressure and a high gearing load. If you want to accelerate right then, all these bad conditions need to be reversed through a kick-down procedure, and you maximize the feeling of a delayed surge in acceleration.

It's not the same transmission as the current generation Q3, but one thing I've noticed is that there is a slight risk of this sort of stuttering/slow take off when braking to a low speed without stopping. If I am at a complete stop with brake pedal depressed, the starts are very predictable. But braking into a turn lane or driveway gets the car into its most hesitant state if I try to accelerate back out of this slow roll.

That is not my experience *at all*. There must be something wrong with that particular transmission.

I love driving manual, but a long stretch of having to commute in stop and go traffic made me switch to automatic, and it has always been a buttery smooth experience for me.

There is nothing worse than the smell of burning clutch in the morning.

Smoothness depends on automatic transmission type. My hybrid Toyota with CVT is a pleasure to drive in a city. Smooth, no gear changes just linear acceleration. Any other car even those with dual clutch feels inferior at least in city traffic.

Then there is something wrong, either with the car, or with your technique, because that is absolutely not typical.

And don't forget leaving from a stop uphill.

There are many techniques to start uphill.

In Italy the driving test is on manual transmission and many people use manual.

I trained in Rome, parking on the left side downhill (so backward is uphill), it was tough, but learned a lot of tricks in the process to prevent stalling. You also become very attuned to the clutch

I do love manual transmission, but the purpose is to have fun, not for daily usage.

Yes the clutch becomes your BFF. But can you really say that a manual is not for daily use ? It certainly helps when dealing with ice & snow.

I’m doubting the person in Italy has a need for ice and snow driving.

Where I am it might snow or ice once a year. However I do own an SUV that has a snow mode. It starts in second to avoid spinning the wheels and will let you manually cycle through the 8 speeds if you want.

North Italy has enough ice and snow driving, including compulsory wheel chains, at least while we keep having European Winters.

GP did mention Rome though.. There's snow and ice in the Italian Alps for sure, but in Rome? Hardly likely.

In Rome no, there is no snow, it's too hot.

The 3 times I can remember there was snow in Rome the city would completely lock, with cars abandoned in the middle of the road (picture post zombie apocalypse kind of thing), so you can't drive even if you want to, because there is no room on the road.

Literal Rome I don't think so, but there are places you can go skiing just a couple of hours from the city.

> I’m doubting the person in Italy has a need for ice and snow driving.

They have high mountains in there, including Alps, with highest peak at 2912 meters.

Mont Blanc (or Monte Bianco as we call it in Italy) is over 4800m.

But yes, plenty of snow in many many places in Italy.

I'm not implying that you cannot, I drove 10 years with manual transmission. I'm suggesting that if possible, auto would be better for daily use.

In the end, it's up to the person.

A lot of modern cars have an automatic brake that keeps your car from going downhill in those situations. Some are smoother, some are weirder, but it works.

Generically, that's called a hill holder, and there were pre-electronic implementations. My 1986 Subaru BRAT had one. I can't speak to how it was to drive; it never worked. The hill holder specifically, the rest of the car mostly worked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill-holder

I've rented a BMW a few years ago on vacation in Portugal. It had manual transmission and a system to prevent rolling back on hills. Those things are not incompatible.

Automatic transmission is much worse than manual in mountain roads and uphill. But I always forget that a lot of people have no idea on how to drive uphill with manual transmission.

Apparently I’m one of those people, given I had no idea this was a thing.

How is driving uphill in a manual different than flat driving in a manual? (Serious question)

They're talking about taking off when stopped on a hill. Pressing the clutch and releasing the brake will result in the car rolling backward down the hill until you get enough forward momentum going to take off. Newer drivers freak-out on the rolling backward bit.

I remember an earlier discussion on HN where different people around the world learned different techniques for preventing the rollback. I remember lots of Europeans saying that's what the parking brake is for. Here in the States we're taught to let out the clutch until it starts to bite and then release the brake. You may still roll backward a few inches but that's no big deal.

I actually enjoyed the challenge of that. The problem with stop-and-go driving, especially in LA where I made the transition to automatic, is that it can go on for a very long time. My left leg would get sore. Starting up a hill typically only has to be done once.

I got manual transmission in my alfa romeo and it behaves the same as automatic regarding uphill start.

People say they hate driving manuals in stop-and-go-traffic and I don't get it - maybe it's because I've been driving them as my daily driver for over 30 years? My left foot and right hand just take care of what needs to be done without my even having to think about it. Essentially I am driving an automatic! :)

Where do you live? Because I lived in LA, and I found that after an hour or more of constant clutching, day after day after day, it got old.

By the time I got to that kind of traffic my left foot and right hand were already on automatic. Doesn't feel like a chore because half the time I'm not even aware of what they're doing - they just do it.

It's not the cognitive load, it's the physical load of pumping the clutch constantly for an hour or more.

I don't even notice it. I would assume you're using a hydraulic clutch? I thought those were pretty much the standard (ha!) since 80's. Maybe I'm just getting a workout without realizing it? I do know whenever I drive my wife's car - which is an automatic because she also hates driving a manual transmission in traffic - my left foot nearly goes through the floorboard before it realizes there's no pedal there! :)

I still get befuddled when parking her car because I never remember to shift into park and I'm wondering why I can't turn the ignition switch to off and pull the key out. Gets me every time!

This was 20-30 years ago. I drove two different manual transmissions in LA, a Volvo 240 and an Infiniti G20. I'm pretty sure the Volvo had a mechanical (non-hydraulic) clutch. Not sure about the G20.

Yeah, a mechanical clutch would be a BEAR!!! All my personal vehicles have always had a hydraulic clutch. They make it so simple your left foot can just do it without you much noticing it.

If it's not a mechanical clutch then it's not a real manual ;-)

:D