* impoverished environment

This meant you could experiment with it, to the point where it broke, secure in the knowledge that recovery was as far as a quick flick of the power switch. The negative was that for complex projects, where you wanted to preserve the state of the machine, you had to play cassette roulette.

One of the first things I did with out PET-2001 was to solder a switch to pin 40 ;-)

Another thing that's important though, you need to be able to make the computer do fun things pretty easily, otherwise you'll (as a kid) loose interest.

I still program in (Visual) Basic (6 and .NET) 20 years later :P though I try not to, and I swore when I finished university that I wouldn't do it again - when my boss told me to, I caved pretty fast :)

There is a curiosity about how to get computers to do what you want that is independent of graphical capabilities and attractive games, social networks, and what not. And that curiosity somehow isn't given to all. Similarly not all are into woodworking, gardening, knitting, and so on.

(By the way, your impoverished-point seem to work for knitting/sewing as well. Why bother if you can get all the clothes and accessories from the shop downtown or the internet for almost nothing? Still there are people enthusiastic about knitting/sewing.)

There's also the classic "Necessity is the mother of invention".

Actually, Openbox might be the thing these days. I'm not sure. Definitely not LXDE -- that's preconfigured.

All 3 solutions run Skype, let you create and manipulate documents and play games. Windows requires by far the most system administration (virus checkers, frequent updates, driver issues, crapware etc) but has the largest software library. Android has the least amount of system administration (essentially none) but is the least flexible (eg document creation typically requires being online) and Android Market isn't available in their country making acquiring new software hard. Linux has the most flexibility but is also the hardest to use (remember the target is a 10 year old whose parents can't even spell Linux, not you). Netbooks also have the worst hardware support under Linux due to proprietary hardware.

An Android tablet would seem to be the best solution when coupled with App Inventor. Sadly App Inventor doesn't run on Android itself so you have to have a non-Android computer to do your development work.

I could of course setup emulators so she gets a Sinclair Spectrum and Apple //e and can learn just how I did, but things have moved on.

You've touched upon some of the key issues. But let me walk through them with you and perhaps we'll get to a similar place ...

"All 3 solutions run Skype, let you create and manipulate documents and play games."

You've outlined some desirable features of this 'computer.' Skype, documents, and game playing. There is a trap here which I've discovered and that is with price. If a computer is 'expensive,' and any new laptop, netbook, or desktop computer will fall into that category, it has to have things which justify its existence/purchase. On the other hand, if the computer does not cost very much, people often dismiss it as a toy. (We have many exemplars from LeapFrog and others which fit this category).

If you had the equivalent of an Apple II (but upgraded to some recent microprocessors) you could have a computer which was programmable (and games of the type that make you think versus fast twitch) could be made for it, and on which you could edit documents but not change fonts or any of that stuff necessarily. And it cost less than $50 and the only 'breakable' parts were the keyboard and the TV you hooked it up to, it might be a different story.

"An Android tablet would seem to be the best solution when coupled with App Inventor. Sadly App Inventor doesn't run on Android itself so you have to have a non-Android computer to do your development work."

This is one of those things that is an issue for me as well. When I tried to use Arduinioes for teaching programming you run into a barrier of getting two computers rather than just one. And sadly the ecosystem of windows, Linux, and MacOS make compatibility a real drain.

"I could of course setup emulators so she gets a Sinclair Spectrum and Apple //e and can learn just how I did, but things have moved on."

I would hear more about 'moved on' ? Do you mean that you have moved on? Or that computer science has moved on? The beauty of these simple systems is that they are simple. They teach you to 'think' computer and that is tremendously powerful when you attack more modern systems. Sort of like a lawn mower motor on a tube frame with a centrifugal clutch isn't really a 'motorcycle' (its a minibike) but it is a great teaching tool on the concepts involved.

One of the areas that could use help on today is graphics. Back in the day there were some great pre-packaged graphics chips with full documentation that you could use to attach to your microprocessor. Sadly those days are gone. The good news however is that nearly every 'intro to FPGAs' class has a part where you build a video chip out of an FPGA. And they are now as cheap as those old customs chips. I've spec'd out a design which is a dual buffered HDMI output with a sprite based HW cursor. Its surprisingly cost effective (parts wise), and since it doesn't care about HDCP compliance its actually pretty simple.

With an open access graphics subsystem, a modest ARM core CPU, some memory, and USB plugs for "disks" and "keyboards" I think we could build a system that works well for learning about computers from 'Wow' to pretty sophisticated data structures. But that is getting ahead of myself.

Not everyone has VGA monitors hanging around (they don't) and only being able to do stuff in one place (where the monitor is) is a significant handicap over a tablet or netbook/mini that can be used anywhere.

While your theory about pricing is correct, in this case the parents really do want to spend about $500 and they really do need Skype, documents and game playing as the existing many year old family laptop is in its last legs. So yes they could buy two things - a cheapo for the kid and a second family laptop replacement, but that is not an optimal route to go. (The parents already have laptops, tablets and smartphones between them.)

> I would hear more about 'moved on'

When I was young having a tty program that asked your name and printed "hello $name" was cool. Nowadays a kid is not going to impress a friend with that. Remember that positive feedback is very reinforcing. On the other hand having an Android app that asks your name in a gui and gives a gui response is so much more familiar. App Inventor has media players, camera recording etc which is so much more modern and expressive. I'd much rather see her making an app where you record yourself saying your name, and then it says "hello $name" with your recording and text to speech.

> With an open access graphics subsystem, a modest ARM core CPU, some memory, and USB plugs for "disks" and "keyboards"

That just won't work. They skipped the whole generation of computers made up of discrete bits (processors, displays, disks, keyboards etc). Instead normal to them is integrated devices (processor, display, storage, wireless network, input mechanisms) and you pickup and use wherever takes your fancy.

Unless the kid becomes a programmer, the experience won't be relevant. Now, you could argue it improves thinking skills etc etc, but bare hardware is really only one layer of the abstraction chain- the layer you are probably most fond of. Every other layer- wiring, circuit design, device engineering, physics, and so on- are no less valid, but you probably can't do all of them. This is because we have to pick and choose which layers of abstraction to spend our time in- which gives the most bang for our buck; which is most relevant. For most people, "how to use a computer" in the office appliance sense is the most valuable.

tl;dr No notebooks and probably tablets for 10 year old. Buy adjustable table, adjustable chair, classic desktop with some ergonomic keyboard and mouse (both with wrist support). Set up timed lockout on the PC, like 10 minutes every 1-2 hours. Lockout after 24:00 and lockout on total uptime per day. After that choose OS from your experience, it doesn't matter really (I think).

I promise, she'll thank you 15 years later.

I completely agree with 'icebraining' concerning your idea of computer-forced strictly timed lockouts: not a good idea.

  Consider scoliosis probability [..]

Where did I say she is unfamiliar with computers? Her and her younger sister already use an almost dead family laptop for Skype, creating documents and playing games. They were figuring out how to search for Dora games before they could spell (use phonetics). They are far more proficient at Angry Birds than you will ever be and not too bad at Desktop Tower Defence. Homework essays are compiled via online research and includes lots of pictures and nice layout.

Human beings are not as fragile as your response implies.

That would be more than enough to discourage me of ever becoming proficient at this. The "zone" applies when you're just learning too, and breaking it is extremely frustrating. Can you imagine closing the lid of the piano just as the kid is playing some difficult piece correctly for the first time?

There should be limits, but they should be soft and enforced by whoever is watching the child, who can presumably understand if (s)he's really excited or just bullshitting on Miniclip or IM.

Schools use timed breaks and in rare cases of interesting classes they do not discourage students to learn.

Obviously we have very different experiences.

3. Timed lockout is not target, invented just to prevent illness, it is also a method. Method to teach self discipline, even to begin teaching self discipline in some cases. No one will tell you how to optimize living when you'll grow up, that is why we read a lot of articles about people who burn out on a job.

First, I'm not opposed to lockouts. I'm opposed to inflexible, computer enforced lockouts.

Secondly, is there any evidence that timed lockouts actually help with self discipline?

In my college days, I used to help students of a government school. It is a very undeveloped area and kids don't have computers at home. All school computers ran Linux and students (aged 11-12) didn't face any difficulty in using Linux.

I used to give this example to my classmates when they blamed Linux :-)

But consider what happens when Ubuntu does an update - if pam gets updated you get a list of services to restart that is gobbeldy gook to almost all.

And most operating systems still make adding printers confusing, and troubleshooting printing issues virtually impossible.

You seriously think that AIDE is appropriate for a kid who is proficient at using computers but has never written a program in her life? How many months do you think it would take to walk her through hello world and what do you think the chances are of her getting it?

> But I don't think I would recommend Android for someone in a country in which they can't access the Market/Play/whatever-they-call-it-next-month

I apologise for being a little loose in my language. Her mom already has two Android devices (tablet and phone) and they sell very well there - usual pattern: BlackBerry was king and is being dethroned.

You can access Android Market but you can't buy anything, and a lot of content that is freely available in other countries does not show up. But your gmail will stay up to date and you do get Skype.

There looks to be a BASIC interpreter in the Play Store for free, https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.free.basic. It doesn't have an integrated editor though, so the kid would have to understand typing things up in one program and running them in another.

Grabbing and trying it... some helpful examples to load would be nice, it doesn't have any. But it does have an "Enter Live" mode, in which one can type up a program and run it. So all that "don't miss a keystroke" charm of the old days is there. This I might very well hand to a kid.

I think it's even easier to buy all of this today.

Or, have I totally misunderstood what you've said?

Sort of. Do your experiment (build a linux box) and put it in front of a kid with no exposure to computers (other than as appliances) try this with kids from 6 to 16.

As you get toward 16 you will start getting better engagement, most will figure its too confusing and stop.

I've run the experiment with Arduinio, even with its pretty straight forward GUI there is still some serious complexities around the notion of compiling, downloading, driver compatibility, etc etc.

One of the things I will do with a RasberryPi is look at building an embedded BASIC box. Hook a keyboard to it, plug it into a TV's HDMI port and turn it on. Blammo, BASIC prompt. (If I can swing it it would be a Python prompt but I digress). Type in the code (using BASIC syntax sorry)

   100 CLEAR
   110 DRAW(100, 100, 200, 100, "WHITE")
   120 DRAW(200, 100, 200, 200, "WHITE")
   130 DRAW(100, 200, 200, 200, "WHITE")
   140 DRAW(100, 100, 100, 200, "WHITE")
   150 FOR I = 100 TO 200 STEP 10
   160 FOR K = 200 TO 100 STEP -10
   170 DRAW(I, K, K, I, "BLUE")
   180 DRAW(K, I, I, K, "GREEN")
   190 NEXT K
   200 NEXT I
   210 END

Why pictures? Being able to draw graphics is a compelling thing for folks, they like to do it, it touches their inner finger painting. It compels them to think about 'steps' and 'math' and stuff.

Doing graphics in Linux is a PITA. The notion of a system which throws away everything except a way to explore through programming, and has access to all of the capabilities of that system, is key. The programming needs to be accessible. I could be K&R C as easily as BASIC but it would need a very simple build environment (code for NOT gcc).

Something that with a manual of no more than a couple of hundred pages, can engage a student to explore it with programming. They don't know what programming is so complaining about types (for example) just demotivates them.

A few of my friends and I intend to roll a linux distro for the RaspberryPi which makes it into a physical "Mako game console", and in addition to playing games[2][3][4](etc) you'll be able to play with an interactive Forth prompt.[5]

  [1]https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako
  [2]http://i.imgur.com/IVNdt.png
  [3]http://i.imgur.com/mJ1ZD.png
  [4]http://i.imgur.com/XumXi.png
  [5]http://i.imgur.com/gLknX.png

(http://geoffg.net/maximite.html)

> The Maximite is a small and versatile computer running a full featured BASIC interpreter with 128K of working memory.

> It will work with a standard VGA monitor and PC compatible keyboard and because the Maximite has its own built in SD memory card and BASIC language you need nothing more to start writing and running BASIC programs.

> The Maximite also has 20 input/output lines which can be independently configured as analog inputs, digital inputs or digital outputs. You can measure voltage, frequencies, detect switch closure, etc and respond by turning on lights, closing relays, etc - all under control of your BASIC program.

One of the items in my list of ideas for this project is that the image save format is GIF or JPEG and that the files are stored on a USB stick (rather than an SD Card) since I'll use USB for the keyboard anyway, and with files on such a device you can carry them over to a laptop or desktop and play with them there too.

But thank you for this link! This is definitely the kind place I've been headed.

How so? Almost every Linux distro comes with Tcl/Tk (if not installed by default, installable by checking a box in a package manager). Using the Tk canvas widget your basic code above becomes:

$ wish <- start a live Tcl/Tk REPL

  canvas .c 
  pack .c -expand true -fill both
  .c create rectangle 100 100 200 100 -fill white
  .c create rectangle 200 100 200 200 -fill white
  .c create rectangle 100 200 200 200 -fill white
  .c create rectangle 100 100 100 200 -fill white
  for {set i 100} {$i <= 200} {incr i 10} {
    for {set k 200} {$k <= 100} {incr k -10} {
      .c create rectangle $i $k $k $i -fill blue
      .c create rectangle $k $i $i $k -fill green
    }
  }

It's a cheap, more powerful, streamlined Arduino without a lot of the messy bits that make that product and it's kin what they are. (And make no mistake, those bits are what make the product desirable for it's target market.) The ability to fashion something as simple as a BASIC environment without having to sacrifice an expensive computer to do it is key.

But then, you're a part of that sort of hacker phenotype. How would a person who doesn't have that experience know how to do that for their kid? How would they even know that they should do it in the first place?

Once we can answer those questions in a satisfactory manner the world will be a better place.

I've often thought about how to replicate a similar experience for my kids, short of getting a collectible 8-bit home computer and removing their access to modern hardware. Anyone have success with this?

Core Tcl (i.e., that portion which a child would be exploring in his/her first introductions to programming) is very close to BASIC in accessibility. Core Tcl has very little syntax overall. Compare the Tcl/Tk code above to draw on a Tk canvas to the BASIC code for the same. There is nearly a 1:1 correspondence. And Tcl/Tk also gives the added advantage that when the children gain a bit of proficiency, then can also easily create GUI's for their code snippets and apps. The GUI's they create may not be beautiful GUI's, but they would be "their GUI's" that they created with their own efforts.

Back in the 8-bit micro days, the commercial games and other software were largely single person efforts. The beauty was that you could teach yourself some BASIC and very easily create something which was at least sorta close to the state-of-the-art.

I think to really hook kids on the idea, you need to have some platform which seems current (e.g. web or mobile) versus an 1980s-style box.

It's easy to "instantly write code" on Linux just like it's easy to "instantly change the brakes" on my car. (I say this as a long-time Linux user and developer.)

Squeak is the only "operating system" I've seen or used that is setup to instantly write code. Actually, I take that back. IIRC they jerry-rigged the OLPC to behave similarly with Python.

I believe this niche is one that the developers of the $35 Raspberry Pi intend to fill. Good luck to them.