> Apple could add an API for 3rd party subscriptions to integrate with that screen.

They could. And the third parties would absolutely ignore it or make it a front door to their own subscription management, which could mean anything from something as simple as the current iOS subscription management (highly unlikely) or a link that opens a browser page that tells you to call a given phone number to cancel your subscription that is always "experiencing high call volumes" and "thanks you for your patience" after half-an-hour on the phone.

A service that is effectively un-cancelable really is the dream product: the person doesn't want it, so they don't actively use it (meaning you have no expense in providing it), but also don't want the hassle of putting up with your "are you sure?" tactics to cancel. Businesses make hundreds of millions of dollars annually on hard-to-cancel subscriptions in the US.

But then Apple could use their market power to remove those cheating apps from the app store, just like they are doing for the billing changes.

I'm just saying, it's a strawman argument to claim that Apple is doing this to "protect users". That's what they want you to think, but they're actually doing this to make a massive amount of revenue at the cost of literally everyone in the market, users and creators alike.

Edit: Econ 101 - the more inelastic the demand, the more the tax burden falls on consumers. One would assume that demand for Patreon is relatively elastic, at least when compared to things like food, housing, transportation, etc. Thus most of this tax burden will actually fall on the producers (i.e. Patreon and the creators), which explains why they're not willing to just take the 30% cut and will instead charge more for Apple users.

The thing is, it does protect users, in some ways. It just happens to earn them a ridiculous amount of money too.

I'd prefer to see them cut the rate from 30%, because it doesn't give anyone that much value, but it does create some for the users of the App Store.

I would prefer to see them forced by legislation (like the Digital Markets Act) to allow some sort of fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory licensing on the App Store. Ideally they would be required to allow third-party marketplaces and self-signed app distribution, then marketplace competition could push their take rate towards 0%.

I understand that some things are hard to cancel and some companies are malicious about this. Back in the pre-app days, this came up with "free samples" and gym memberships. The general solution back then was to either (a) not get scammed or (b) use a unique credit card that you could easily cancel. With the advent of things like Privacy cards, you can pretty easily do this without an App Store intermediate.

That said, they could keep the benefit for users and the fee for Apple Pay, but then not require that apps exclusively use Apple Pay. They could even require that all apps call an API to issue some scary warning that the subscription will not be manageable in your Apple Pay dashboard, make sure you trust this app developer, are you sure you want to continue? etc etc

Plus there are plenty of other billing services that can do this. I already mentioned Privacy cards. If you sign up for PayPal recurring payments, they also have an authorizations dashboard that you can easily use to revoke payment permissions. Neither of these companies needs to charge a 30% fee to offer that. Both charge somewhere around the "standard" CC fee of 3%.

That's fine, but that doesn't happen on Android where the restrictions are more lax. (Well, it does, but in rates that are too low to justify imposing the excessive measures iOS employs)

I empathize with your struggle, but it's a pathetically weak argument against letting Apple continue abusing their position. If your parents are clicking on random email or SMS links, that's an issue outside of your OS security policy. They could be autofilling their credit card details on a malicious site in Safari or iMessaging their SSN to someone with a spoofed CallerID. My parents both use Android and let me tell you, worrying about them activating Developer Mode on their phone is the last thing I go to sleep worried about. In a post-Pegasus world you and I both know there are bigger fish to fry.

Do your parents a favor, talk to them about digital security if you're actually worried about them. Your other choice is to let reductive paranoia consume you until you're only comfortable when their web browser and contacts list is locked in a straitjacket.

> I'm just saying, it's a strawman argument to claim that Apple is doing this to "protect users".

It can absolutely be both, which is why this isn't such a cut and dry issue.

30% is too high. Charge whatever Visa charges.

Without commenting on the appropriate level of charges, Visa and Apple provide very different services. For example, with Apple, you get administration of taxes in many locales as well as dealing with currency exchange. Also, I don't think sellers have to deal with chargebacks, although Apple might have their own version of a chargeback, but I am not sure.

> Also, I don't think sellers have to deal with chargebacks, although Apple might have their own version of a chargeback, but I am not sure.

They absolutely do, just through Apple, "Disputes".

Apple will refund the user the full purchase price (that's fun, $10 app, you get $7 after the Apple cut, and on refund, you have to refund $10, so you're actually out money).

And too many disputes will get your developer privileges restricted or revoked.

That’s pretty shitty of Apple.

What would you pay to have access to the most affluent mobile users with CC's preloaded and ready to buy? That's what Apple is charging for. It must be worth quite a bit since people either pay or complain up and down they are forced to pay it or they don't have a business.

IIRC, the judge in the EPIC case even said there was no issue with 30%.

You mean for Apple to charge that on top of the Visa charges, which Apple is paying out of the 30% now, I assume? Apple is the merchant of record for App Store txns and pays all the transaction fees, as well as all their other costs, out of the 30%. (I don't know how much all that adds up to, but the total is strictly greater than sum of the credit card fees.)