Am I the only one that doesn't really think of most of Europe as an ally anymore? If it wasn't for shared opposition to Russia and China I would support us cutting most of these ties anyways.
Well, if it helps, plenty of us Europeans don't think of the US as allies anymore. The current administration has made it quite clear.
The only hope is that the next administration will be a bit less eager to cut ties with all its allies and might fix some of the self-inflicted damage.
The only actual hope is a common European defence policy (and industry) independent of NATO. The day Germany agrees to it, the dominos might fall, and the USA might realise what it has lost.
I mean, the US was paying for the ability to project both force and influence all over the world. Clearly, the US isn't willing to pay for either thing at the moment.
Germany where 20% of the population currently votes for AfD? I don't think they should get to have an army until they can figure out how not to use it for evil. They should have a lot of defence treaties and pay for them, though.
What the United States has just demonstrated is that it's idiotic to rely on them for anything fundamentally vital when its government can drastically and dramatically go manic/bi-polar ever 4 years
Calling European countries "freeloaders" is such a one dimensional way of looking at this. Europe "outsourced" most of its defense to the US because the US wanted it that way, for soft power, influence, access to military bases and probably many other reasons.
This will become undeniably obvious when Europe stops being "freeloaders" and the US will complain about that too.
When you outsource you make a payment for services. I would have no problem with such an arrangement, but in this case, no payment is made, which is why I say "freeloaders."
The payment is that the USA got to make the rules for the whole world, most importantly regarding trade, and we follow them. Now you have decided to elect someone who is destroying the very world order you built that you specifically designed to benefit you! It certainly wasn't out the kindness of your own hearts that you had such a disproportionately strong military, that must be clear to you.
I guess I feel sorry for you because the British Empire had to fight two extremely destructive world wars against militarism and fascism in order to lose its role as superpower. The USA on the other hand has decided to lose its role as global hegemon because, why exactly, trans people and abortion??? Quite pathetic! In the long list of empires the American one will be remembered as having the most pathetic and stupid collapse of all, and that's very sad!
No, you are the hegemon, and that costs money. It was the same when the British Empire ruled 1/4 of the Earth. You don't blame your colonies for costing you money or "freeloading", nobody is forcing to be the global superpower. Just retreat from the world into your small little world of domestic politics, which is admittedly what you're doing, but don't blame us for it.
There's actually some truth to that. For a long time, the US was quite happy (with ups and downs) with paying more to be the sole military leader of the West, and Europe with paying less while focusing first on rebuilding, then on losing colonial empires, then on other stuff.
Recent US administrations obviously have different priorities. The latest has decided to phrase their priorities by negotiating with enemies of NATO, insulting NATO leaders, threatening to withhold help should NATO countries be under attack, and of course threatening to invade two NATO countries.
Clearly, it is a time for both parties to clarify what they want from an alliance and what they're willing to contribute. I suspect that, for one thing, the EU wants more clarity and predictability than what the current US administration is willing to provide.
He wants you guys to pay up or get out. You may not be satisfied with how he has gone about making those demands, but he has been very predictable and clear about it. As for negotiating with enemies, I was under the impression that is one of the main things you do with enemies.
Not that many Americans are worried about whether Europeans are allies. Only people who have fallen into some kind of information black hole, like the kind of people who email around 30 times forwarded jpegs of newspaper articles about the conspiracy behind covid or something. Sadly this has happened to many of the 80+ year old scions of my own family.
Anyway, I don't see this among the Americans who are still actively connecting with the world, the kind of people who aren't focused on ivermectin not taking vaccines or similar priorities.
I mean kind of? I feel like other than allies of necessity (to counter other great powers) there isn't really a point in pretending to be friendly to countries that are different to us in practically every way.
Is the cultural difference really that big? Bigger, then say, the difference between NYC and rural Kansas?
Me and my generation (born in the 80s) of Western European have grown up admiring the US. Listening to your music, watching your movies, wearing your brands. And we still do, mostly.
The unease seems to have started some time after 9/11 though. European countries joined various wars, that turned out to be mostly a grab for control of oil states. (WMD anyone?)
And the US basically just stopped leading the way on international cooperation. Instead of cofounding the Internation Court of Justice, the US threatened to invade The Hague because of it. Instead of leading the way on averting climate change, having the tech, the global power and the money to do so, the US chose to block much of the initiative coming from elsewhere. And there've been many similar things.
So yeah, to me at least the US feels kind of like an old friend that's been derailed. By 9/11, perhaps.
I'd love to be proven wrong. I'd love to come back to visit the US more often in the future. But with this administration, I just won't risk it. And also.. I just don't want to, at the moment. :-/
Honestly fair enough. And for the record, I do not want the US and Europe to stop cooperating, I just think that we have lost much of the intrinsic cultural reasoning for allying in the first place. But at the same time, your statement about the urban/rural culture gap kind of refutes my point anyways. Either way, we still have much bigger fish to fry with Russia and China on the horizon, so we definitely have more in common with each other government wise compared to the rest of the world.
I'd say many people in the EU have similar views and ideas to about 2/3rds of the US (maybe I'm being generous on the US size), the half of the US that doesn't think the world is flat, that global warming might be happening, that following the rule of law is a good thing and we don't need to destroy the US to fix it.
Europe is more alike most Americans then you are to other Americans. Why pretend to be friendly with other states why not breakup. Cities in states should break apart from rural areas. We can all go back to tribal hunting groups.
Pretty sure lots of smart-minded europeans would love a chance for europe to detach and be actually allowed to develop its own services sector. Seems to me the US wants europe to be a contributing ally when it suits, and an open market to dump services into when it doesn't
This is just American nonsense. Literally every single country in Europe is capitalist. Socialism is the democratic ownership of the means of production. Nowhere do we have that in Europe. Frankly this is the real problem with America, about half the population are extremely poorly educated and yet extremely arrogant. A deadly combination, clearly, as it’s led to the very sudden decline and fall of the American Empire.
You stated something objectively wrong (that European countries are socialist) and then get called out and your reply is just to get upset, literally no information content whatsoever. It's very on brand, I suppose, reminds me a lot of that fraudster, convicted rapist and known paedophile currently in the White House.
Regardless, I agree we are going in separate directions, indeed the USA is no longer even a Western country. We had some good times, the American Empire was pretty great whilst it lasted, I wish you all the best.
My entire point is that many Europeans love to call Americans stupid and uneducated about politics while acting the exact same way themselves, all without noticing the blatant hypocrisy. The difference between you and me and that I know and accept that I am an uneducated idiot about most things. I wish you all the best as well. Hopefully everything works out for the best for everyone involved.
There's nothing wrong with being stupid at all. I just don't understand why you have such strong opinions on something you clearly know nothing about. So: you don't like Europe, USA's oldest and most important allies because they're socialists. OK but Europe is not even socialist, literally all European countries are capitalist (objectively, it's an undeniable fact). Now what? Any reflection, reevaluation? No, you just get offended and tell me once again that you don't like me because I'm European and that's it.
The enlightenment is dead in the USA, knowledge and facts no longer matter. Feelings over facts really won.
First, you failed to read past the first entry in my list of reasons, second you still do not seem to understand what I am saying. You tell me about how half the population of the country that I live in is poorly educated, stupid, and arrogant while you probably do not even live there and then tell me I remind you of a rapist because of that. You do not seem to notice that, if what you are saying is true, you come off as all of those things as well (not the rapist part though lol) because you are doing the exact same thing that I am, talking about something you have little to no direct experience in.
But I'm not saying half the population of your country are morons because I'm bigoted or hate Americans, indeed I have spent almost my entire life respecting and admiring your country and its people. I'm saying half your population are morons because half your population voted for Trump. That's perfectly logical.
And yes I can talk about these things because your country remains the global hegemon, the USA is unavoidable. It's not as if I'm expressing some hot takes on South Sudanese politics, is it? So if we are to be ruled by you please don't be surprised if we have some opinions of you too. That's a fair deal, isn't it?
You are perfectly welcome to have whatever opinion you want, but when your intelligent and clearly more educated than mine opinion of everyone in the United States, a country that you do not live in, comes down to the most basic binary political nonsense that an 8 year old is capable of spouting I am also welcome to have my opinion of you based on an actual interaction. And either way, I am just as welcome to have my uneducated opinions on someone else's politics as you are.
Those don't seem like the best reasons. European and American economics are pretty close. Europe isn't socialist, it has broader welfare system than the US, but the US has significant welfare systems as well.
I've lived in the US and in Europe and the UK. Shared culture is still very significant. If anything, maybe even closer now than in the 90s.
There's probably other reasons to think about the why and how of alliances than these.
I'm okay with a country jailing people for the crime of tweeting "we should murder all trans people". That probably should be a crime. Punishment should fit the crime though, so no more than a few weeks.
Literally never happened. You just are way too online if you believe that. Try visiting the UK sometime, you clearly never been and it’s a great country.
The US is allied with actual authoritarian regimes.
I'm not a big fan of the UK, I grew up there and left. But this whole UK is authoritarian thing is totally overblown in the US media and HN comments. Having free speech restrictions implemented by an elected government isn't authoritarian. You could even say that having totally free speech imposed by a non-elected government is authoritarian if people don't want it. These things are separate. I listen to UK media quite often (topical comedies mostly) and my feeling is that these laws are generally supported. There's a lot of negativity about social media from bullying up to incitement of violence.
I guess this might be a matter of conditioning. You might live in an environment where concepts around the stem "social" has become a pejorative. In that way it is understandable that a term like "social democrat" is interpreted as "communist". There does not exist anything you imagine like that.
What is different is that there is more opposition and cultural resistance to hyper capitalism. Think monopolies, corporatism, live-to-work, hustle-culture.
With regards to any messaging about "freedom" in the USA, be vigilant, I do think people will be unpleasantly surprised about what has been transacted away. Personal freedoms are indeed extremely important, so zero Schadenfreude here. And yes, those lobby groups in the EU fail to get their stupid anti-encryption laws passed, but they keep trying, so it is frightening. Citizens and visitors of the Five Eyes have lost any privacy already, but we need all of us to fight back.
TLDR: it is better to cooperate around common causes than to fight imaginary opponents. We are in the same boat.
I genuinely can't tell whether you are serious or trolling. Please tell me more about how Europe is socialist.
Or what does that even mean to you. Is socialism when state exists? You are not first American to say that, and every time it happens, I'm genuinely surprised. (I mean, rhetorical question. I suppose that's what socialism is to you. And you are a part of a problem too, because you are growing up internally people who genuinely believe that socialism is good because it means healthcare and higher education. Words no longer have meaning to you in America.)
> most European countries seem to be on a path towards socialism
No, unfortunately the path in most European countries seems to be heading towards fascism, not socialism. We Europeans do tend to follow America in many things.
Yes. Aside from Trump the United States and Europe share overwhelming interests and values. When Trump is gone they should work hard to repair what he has destroyed
