Only a handful of comments and this is already looking like your typical reddit thread regarding anything geared towards and underrepresented minority: "what about us white men???".
I expect better from you guys. Perhaps that's my mistake.
I'm among those who think this organization isn't doing it right, but I'm a 'colored' developer. Does that make my opinion any more valid than the white men's ?
To me this is as beneficial as a 'white girls rap' bootcamp, but hey, whatever helps.
Oh look, an appeal to identity politics from the person whose one contribution to the site is "The Fundamental Theorem of Welfare Politics" on Wikipedia.
The overall number of posts creates the basis for a ratio that demonstrates interests amongst divergent topics. In this case, yours have been placed under suspicion for defending a libertarian viewpoint and separately, one that maintains white privilege. I believe the frequent intersection between these views was the basis for his comment. I'm sure you disagree though.
>The overall number of posts creates the basis for a ratio that demonstrates interests amongst divergent topics.
I can't parse this sentence.
>In this case, yours have been placed under suspicion for defending a libertarian viewpoint and separately, one that maintains white privilege. I believe the frequent intersection between these views was the basis for his comment. I'm sure you disagree though.
The post you are replying to wasn't me. Also, I have never defended a libertarian viewpoint, and my one submission was also not libertarian (perhaps you should read it to confirm).
Anyway I find this character attack tiresome, and against the spirit of public debate. If I had said something in one post that clearly contradicted something I said in another, I would be happy to explain it. But it seems like the poster was just having a go at me for posting right wing stuff. I am a right winger. Other posters will just have to deal with it.
EDIT: edited to remove some assumptions about your views.
You mean how about we dignify "arguments" like your "Where're the free events to help white men code? Maybe they exist, but I haven't heard about them."
Are you intentionally misrepresenting people's concerns of promoting racial discrimination as a virtue? I think it's concerning that we want to segregate and advance certain racial groups instead of addressing (what I see as) the core issue -- why are we so segregated (racist?)? Why are we uncomfortable around people who look/act/dress a little different than us? Many of us are multi-racial immigrants with backgrounds that cant be identified by by the color of a crayon.
That said, I think teaching anyone to code is better than not teaching them to code. If you choose who you teach based on the color of their skin, I don't see how that isn't racism.
You can write as many paragraphs about the technical definition of "racism" as you'd like. You are criticizing a private effort someone is taking to commit private resources to helping an underserved demographic get access to programming expertise. Your choice of controversy speaks louder than any particular argument you might make. The point of these arguments, whether you realize and accept it or not, is to diminish the claim people have to being underserved in the first place. I find that notion contemptible.
Since you seem to be very connected to the a generic literal meaning of things, try taking one more step and imagine how this "racism" would manifest itself, what the negative repercussions could be. Would whites and males be kicked out or jailed for trying to attend?
You're ignoring the cultural context in favor of whatever correct perspective you have. Unfortunately, natural language doesn't respond well to simple analysis like yours.
> Since you seem to be very connected to the a generic literal meaning of things
Quite the opposite. I'm arguing in principle, and if you would like to redefine these words, I have no problem with that.
> try taking one more step and imagine how this "racism" would manifest itself
I fear that people continue to only associate with those in their small bubble of what makes them comfortable instead of reaching out and forging relationships that span sex/color/religion. Maybe they feel that they need a "black" version of education, and feel less confident in their ability to thrive in a multi-cultural society. Instead of opening up to new cultures we cement ourselves in one that we can identify with based on superficial factors like skin color and clothes.
I'm actually arguing from a position deeper than "white men should be able to join too!". Please, don't take it that way. I think humans tend to be afraid of people who are different than themselves, and that's the core issue. When we turn our skin color into an identity, we segregate ourselves from so many people. I think something like sports/teambuilding would be more effective at breaking down the barriers we're witnessing in our society.
These are all mostly separate issues than teaching black girls to code. Why do you think they must be conflated and tackled at the same time? There is a benefit to tailoring solutions to different problems. There is nothing contradictory about being for all the things you mentioned while also encouraging specifically black girls to experiment with coding.
> There is a benefit to tailoring solutions to different problems.
There is, but I don't think that being inclusive to black girls requires being exclusive to everyone else. Not only that, they're cutting themselves off from potential peers who can help them grow their passion for programming.
Maybe I'm being naive, but I think it's possible for a brand to appeal to people of multiple races. In my mind I see other minority kids feeling left out and unappreciated. This kind of hits close to home, so I'm not just speaking out my ass. But just to reiterate, I don't think reaching out to people of a specific demographic is inherently wrong. I just wish it could be done without being exclusionary.
This is not a plain level field. Many are still suffering from institutional discrimination based on race, generations later, just as some are still enjoying the fruits of it. The bubbles exist. Obvious point made because this ties into culture, which is what programs like this help with. You're trying to deal with social issues at a universal human level which is orders of magnitude harder, if not impossible in practice. If I'm understanding you correctly.
My point was, however: you're taking an absolute view of discrimination based on race being racism. It's not the case.
Most free software engineering events are by default "help white men code events" because the environment is almost always extremely comfortable for white men because most of the participants are white men.
The goal of this program is to create a sanctuary where black women are able to feel more comfortable because they are going to be among peers they can relate to. Participating in an activity with your peers can be very helpful in fostering interest, comfort and confidence in someone.
That being said, I would prefer if this program was focused on women who are minorities (black, latino, eastern european, asian, etc.). You don't need to see people of just your own race to feel like you are among your peers. Furthermore, although the focus would be open to women who are minorities, they should footnote that they are open to the participation of men who are underrepresented in technology or caucasian women, who are also under-represented in technology. You can have a focus without being exclusionary.
Your "argument" is puerile, privileged bellyaching in response to someone donating his own money towards helping an organization teach kids how to code.
It's virtuous because it acknowledges reality, and the reality is that society does not treat all groups equally, and that there are still systemic barriers in place. It also acknowledges that targeted campaigns working on relatively homogeneous groups are probably the most effective.
The point of the whole civil rights movement wasn't just to extend all political and economic rights on paper to the black population and then just leave it at that. The point was to extend justice and fairness to all Americans. Anyone who takes a look at the last 40 years of American History can understand that that has not happened.
Unfortunately, since the systemic barriers are both externally enforced AND to a degree internally self inflicted, any attempt to address some of the self-inflicted barriers will be "discriminatory".
Good job asking a loaded question in what was I guess your attempt at appearing rational. (In case you don't see it, its analogous to a reporter asking someone: "why did you murder and rape that girl behind the shed")
Racial discrimination isn't inherently bad. Doctors "racially discriminate" regarding certain treatments such as heart disease, hypertension, etc because of their disparate prevalence among minorities. So whether discrimination is bad depends on the context and whats being accomplished. "Discriminating" against whites and men (fucking laughable) in an attempt to create a safe and welcoming environment for a severely underrepresented group is a positive use of discrimination.
A loaded question is when you try to misrepresent someone's point of view. Am I missing something, or did you not agree with the basic premise (Racial discrimination isn't inherently bad)?
I would argue your doctor analogy is flawed in that doctors don't racially discriminate, but biologically discriminate. I guess I can see why you would think that.
> So whether discrimination is bad depends on the context and whats being accomplished.
I agree, but I still haven't seen a good argument for racial discrimination. Can you cite examples of where racism was good for society? I'm willing to keep an open mind about it, but I think in the long run, segregating ourselves is not the right way forward. Maybe this is too disney, but I'd like to live in a world where we can disregard race and reach out to whoever needs it.
My dad is a doctor (who felt it necessary to go over every trial he has helped run). They do discriminate explicitly on race (as well as other factors). Saying that this racial discrimination is biological is equivalent to saying that their are significant biological differences between the races. Although this is true in some cases (mostly genetic diseases), more often race is relevant as a proxy for social and cultural positioning. In practice, I suspect that if racism was stamped out of society at general, then there would be no medical benefit to racism in medical desisions.
> This entire thread is about "discrimination" for the purposes of introducing black girls to programming. Is that not a positive for society?
Are you justifying racism via economic output? I've seen this line of reasoning go horribly wrong before..
Obviously teaching people how to be productive is good. But what about teaching people to discriminate against others? If we were to argue from principle, I would agree that racism is not a virtue. That said, I don't adhere to principled reasoning 100% of the time and would be happy to help "black girls" code.
Quit trying to intellectualize your racist approach to moral righteousness. It's coming across as desperate. If you have a principled argument to make, now would be a good time. If all you have is more false analogies then I think I've had enough.
A non-black girl/boy comes along and says that they want to participate, too. The black girls/their instructors tell them to piss off because they are not black and a girl to boot? If this is not racist, I don't know what is.
How about a program for any children under a certain age - be they black or not? If they wanted to include more of the under-represented minorities in the program, they could promote it more heavily in the areas where the minorities tend to live/congregate. Such approach would achieve a similar goal without being racist.
Perhaps your mistake is thinking about this as something specific to Reddit in the first place. I know there are some fairly prominent groups with axes to grind who act as though racism, sexism and the patriarchy sprung into existence fully formed with the creation of Reddit, but it's always been a reflection of wider society, nothing more.
I expect better from you guys. Perhaps that's my mistake.