That's hilarious. People in Russia support Putin exactly because there are virtually no free mass media. This is one of the latest steps to block access to all media channels that may oppose Russian cleptocratic government.
don't always believe what you read here, there are a lot of Russians who want to relive the glory days, real or perceived. Just because we in the West don't like him doesn't mean much to them, if anything it might bolster his image there.
plus, considering what our President(s) do/done where do we have room to brag/gloat? I cannot find those news articles where Putin is using drones to kill his citizens abroad.
This is spot on. Russians had a ton of structure for ~70 years, then one day all of that disappeared. Outside the big cities, things did kind of go to shit for a long time, with many youth addicted to drugs or simply jobless and desperate. This led to a rise in extreme nationalism among the youth, who pine for the "good old days" when Russia was a global superpower.
You know those racist, alcoholic rednecks in Alabama who fly confederate flags, praise Jesus and love America? Russia has a lot of those. Except the government actively encourages their insanity, because redirecting their furor at outside forces (Ukraine/Crimea, US, the EU, etc) distracts from the kleptocracy that runs the country and has quietly been consolidating wealth and business ownership into the hands of a very small group of oligarchs. Putin is a hero to these guys; he projects a nationalist ideology onto the global stage, where Russia is the bully that gets its way.
Not saying the US doesn't do its share of geopolitically shady crap (NSA spying, etc) but it never reached these levels of crazy. What Russia and Putin are doing is very reminiscent of Nazi Germany, and not in a "they're acting line Nazis" kind of way. By promoting the dangerous idea that "ethnic Russians" in other countries need protection, it elevates that nationalism to the point where it can be used as a context for an invasion of a country. Never mind that the idea of "ethnic Russian" could apply to any person living in a country that was formerly part of the USSR.
Just to make it clear, I don't disagree with your first two paragraphs regarding nationalism and alcoholism, but your apologetic attitude for the US is somewhat worrying.
Except for Ukraine, which is a controversial subject, when was the last time Russia directly threatened a sovereign nation and overthrew their governments?
Now, how about the US in the last 14 years - Iraq, Afghanistan, Venezuela, Haiti, Gaza Strip, Somalia, Iran, Lybia and Syria. Does that not come off as "crazy" to you?
EDIT: oops, sorry. Forgot Yemen and Pakistan, against whom there is no official declaration of war either.
Except for Ukraine, which is a controversial subject, when was the last time Russia directly threatened a sovereign nation and overthrew their governments?
What did Russia in Georgia with Abhazia and South Ossetia? How about Republic of Moldova where Russia still holds a standing army with no legal status? (It's the former 14th USSR army, which just happen to remain on the Moldova's territory after the fall of USSR, but to submit to Moscow nevertheless, and which was/is being used to support the so-called Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic, BTW.)
P.S.: Please, don't use USA's action to justify Russia. If crimes are being committed by someone somewhere doesn't mean that a crime are no longer a crime.
You are right - we overthrew Iran's government way back in the 1950s, not recently. Their president was a popular moderate (a medical doctor I think). Then we forced the Shah of Iran on the Iranian people.
In my lifetime I believe that we have tried to overthrow 30+ governments around the world when in the interests of America's financial elite.
Do you know what I consider patriotism to be? It includes admitting things that we did wrong and try very hard to do better in the future.
This whole thread started from "US does more bad things than Russia, just look at recent history." You can't start tossing things that the US did in the 50's on the table, and not do the same for Russia. The whole point (as I see it) of the "in the last 14 years" qualifier is that we're talking recent history. It's disingenuous to dredge up things from much further into the past.
It was also a different time period with different considerations. Now I'm not being an apologist for this stuff, but I would say that similar actions in the more recent past have much less justification, even if you are someone that buys into the "Domino Effect" defense from the Cold War-era.
Or other information about Russian atrocities in that war. (The whole point with drones is that they are pinpoint attacks, with relatively low civilian casualities.)
And USA is a tempering influence, re Gaza. Consider what would happens if Finland or a Baltic country used rocket artillery against St Petersburg? No, better to not consider that... (shudder.)
1) That was not what I was doing. He was comparing Russia and the U.S. in the last paragraph, so it was very relevant.
2) If we're talking about atrocities, let's talk about 100,000 casualties in Iraq.(most conservative estimate). Additionally, 2,400 dead from drone strokes. Most, if not all, without due process in Pakistan and Yemen.
3) Tempering influence? Are you serious? Is it tempering to overthrow governments and install new ones while denationalizing oil contracts? I heard Lybia's a democracy now and not a shithole.
U.S. is just as bad as Russia. Your time of being the beacon of light and democracy is gone.
>>Tempering influence? Are you serious? Is it tempering to overthrow governments
"Tempering influence" was specifically about Gaza.
But you know that.
>>100,000 casualties in Iraq
First, let me note I am not defending the Iraq invasion. Not because I cares about the rights of evil juntas, but because it was so badly managed it even increased the suffering.
Second, those in Iraq were mainly killed in a civil war by people also trying to kill Americans. It is not trivial to blame Americans for that...
I think you know that, too.
About drone strikes -- both the Pakistani and Yemeni governments accepted them. In Pakistan unofficially, because the extremists targets polticians/media/etc with the "wrong" opinions.
I think you know that, third...
Etc.
Edit: I might add that I'm not American. Please keep personal attacks relevant at least, propagandist.
I think you're painting everything black and white here. I'm Russian, I have no TV at home, I get all my news from reddit and twitter, and I still support Putin, though I don't like him a lot. You're right about mass media, but that doesn't mean you can't have sources of information you like. Russia is not North Korea.
Putin brought quality of life in Russia to a pretty nice level, and he keeps doing it, and a lot of people like that. And I see no point in becoming involved in protest movement and revolution rage. We all saw what happened to our neighbour, we need evolution, not revolution.
Just like it was the russians in Odessa that burned all those people alive? Please.
Russia barely supports anyone in the east. Even NY times(the newspaper that was fully pro Iraq war) went in, talked to the separatists and found out they're just pro federalization.
Your blind hate for Putin is apparent. You'll start blaming earthquakes in Oklahoma on him soon.
I have a good friend who is an Israeli citizen and he has been complaining for the 20 years I have known him that his country's politics are so warped by the people he calls 'the rich American assholes' (like AIPAC) who fund the right wing in Israel that sometimes his country does not seem to be such a good democracy. Imagine a whole lot of external money being injected into the politics of your country - you would probably not like it either.
As for my country, the USA: we are certainly a democracy but there is so much cheating via gerrymandering, etc. that I feel like we have lost something very precious since the end of the second world war when our financial elites started to step up their game.
Why should I define democracy, chemical entropy or anything else which I am not an expert on -- and lots of academics have put much time and energy into defining?
Look up democracy index and freedom index on wikipedia, which I referenced.
Russia has fallen a lot further on the central ones of those, as I wrote. I asked if that ALSO was a Western conspiracy, which the Russian media are full of.
The POINT was -- the paid Russian propagandists aren't allowed to write that. They mostly go away.
It seems the whole internet quality suffers, not only HN, from those Russian astroturf trolls in most languages.
(Israel is not only beside the point -- as I've heard it described, if you put three Israelis in a room you'll find at least four hard opinions on most any subject. :-) The same goes for the media. In general, democracies put under pressure from terrorism aren't pretty: By definition, terrorism scares the voters. That results in that the governments throw out the law books, because they want to get reelected. See Germany, USA, Italy, Israel, Britain, etc.)
So you refuse to criticize the Putin junta for being non democratic? Thanks, that is all I need for an opinion about you.
[I guess it is time for you to use another account to lower the HN quality? :-( A quick browsing through your comment hostory is mostly USA criticism and pro-dictators, mainly Russia. Very little to none of programming or development. ]
How is the weather in Moscow, by the way? (St Petersburg? Some military base somewhere?)
>That's hilarious. People in Russia support Putin exactly because there are virtually no free mass media.
That's BS. They support him because he is not a bloody puppet like Yeltsin and co, and the alternatives are worst.
He might support cronyism, but that's nothing compared to selling your country wholesale to the highest western bidder, like a sorry excuse of a lackey.
Russians prefer a cleptocratic government with Putin than a cleptocratic government without Putin. There are no non-cleptocratic governments in the world. Power corrups ... you know the rest of this, right?
Just stop this craptastic argument of "every government is the same". Another favorite argument taken directly from putinbots social media guidance.
And stop using strawman arguments. No government is perfect but there are degrees of corruption in the government. Russian government is extremely corrupt, Iceland government is a little bit corrupt. One is better than another. God, do I really have to post trivia on HN?
Don't think trivial and you'll be safe. There are degrees of corruption between of the biggest countries and the tiny ones, but not so much inside the group. The methods vary, of course.
Heh, Right. Is there free mass media anywhere else? Are you aware that any journalist who spoke out against the Iraq war never had a career again? Free mass media is a political talking point, not a real thing.
Would you prefer Yeltsin? Putin is what Russia needs.
Since you're more concerned with attacking me ad hominem, I guess I'll just join in. You are paid by the NSA[0]. Mind-blown!Since, after all, character assassination is the way lead a discussion.
Additionally, your name sounds ukrainian. You must be a right wing ULTRA then! How is that for being a putinbot. See how ridiculous you look throwing accusations at people just because they disagree with you.
