I think there's some potential inconsistencies in what you're saying here.
Let the _particular kind of product_ (your emphasis), for the purposes of this discussion, to be the theme of the cake. The theme could be gay marriage, rebel flag/racist, birthday, straight marriage, etc. You seem to be operating from the premise that the theme-to-baker pairing matters.
And let the way the transaction goes here is: customer and baker negotiate over what goes on the cake/cake size/etc, collect details about delivery or pickup, exchange money, then the cake is made in time for the agreed upon date, and the cake is picked up by customer or delivered to the target site by baker.
What I hear you're saying is there's a difference in the discretion the baker has between making the racist-themed cake and gay marriage-themed cake. And, then you said,
> If they offer delivery as part of their service, then yes, they do. If not, then they don't.
You seem to indicate there's allowed baker discretion depending on whether the cake shall be delivered or not? What does that have to do with it? Participation is participation, right? Participation begins in the initial conversation about what goes on the cake. I think maybe you were talking about something else.
I'm just trying to understand your mental baker discretion matrix of offense-level vs. religious freedom vs. protected class. Like, legally would a white baker have to bake the rebel flag racist cake but not a black baker? Also, is there some legal wiggle room? For example, could you legally make the justification that a Muslim bakery would not have to bake the gay marriage cake because it's SO offensive/disruptive to them, but Christian bakeries WOULD have to make the gay marriage cake because Christians are normally so tolerant and docile? Maybe I'm not forming my questions properly, I'm just trying to untangle what you're saying.
> Of course we can. But we can't be legally obligated to.
Issue 1 is: can a baker be forced to make a cake for a gay couple? The answer is yes.
Issue 2 is: can a baker be forced to make an X-themed cake for some value of X? The answer is no.
AFAIK the only difference between a cake for a gay wedding and a straight one is the little statue on top. I suppose one might quibble over whether a baker can be forced to put two little groom statues on top of the cake they've made. But no one is actually fighting over that. What is at issue is whether a baker can refuse to make a cake -- any kind of cake -- for a gay wedding because they don't believe in gay marriage. And the answer to that is a definitive no.
(And a baker can choose to offer delivery or not. But if they offer delivery, they can't refuse to deliver to a gay wedding -- or a mosque or a synagogue or a satanic temple.)
> What you're saying about delivery makes sense, thanks for explaining.
My pleasure.
> Issue 1 is just Issue 2 in my mind with X filled in. These kinds of inconsistencies bother me.
But they are completely different. In case #2 we're talking about two different products. In case #1 we're talking about two different customers. That's the difference.
Let the _particular kind of product_ (your emphasis), for the purposes of this discussion, to be the theme of the cake. The theme could be gay marriage, rebel flag/racist, birthday, straight marriage, etc. You seem to be operating from the premise that the theme-to-baker pairing matters.
And let the way the transaction goes here is: customer and baker negotiate over what goes on the cake/cake size/etc, collect details about delivery or pickup, exchange money, then the cake is made in time for the agreed upon date, and the cake is picked up by customer or delivered to the target site by baker.
What I hear you're saying is there's a difference in the discretion the baker has between making the racist-themed cake and gay marriage-themed cake. And, then you said,
> If they offer delivery as part of their service, then yes, they do. If not, then they don't.
You seem to indicate there's allowed baker discretion depending on whether the cake shall be delivered or not? What does that have to do with it? Participation is participation, right? Participation begins in the initial conversation about what goes on the cake. I think maybe you were talking about something else.
I'm just trying to understand your mental baker discretion matrix of offense-level vs. religious freedom vs. protected class. Like, legally would a white baker have to bake the rebel flag racist cake but not a black baker? Also, is there some legal wiggle room? For example, could you legally make the justification that a Muslim bakery would not have to bake the gay marriage cake because it's SO offensive/disruptive to them, but Christian bakeries WOULD have to make the gay marriage cake because Christians are normally so tolerant and docile? Maybe I'm not forming my questions properly, I'm just trying to untangle what you're saying.
> Of course we can. But we can't be legally obligated to.
Yeah, fair point.